03-05-2003 00:55									#31
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Don't do it!

It's a test!

	03-05-2003 00:56									#32
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 "Who can defy the will of God?" -Moses (from the ten commandments)

Well, the Chinese and the Indians did a good job of it for millenia.

	03-05-2003 00:57									#33
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quote: Well, the Chinese and the Indians did a good job of it for millenia.

They'll get their's

	03-05-2003 00:58									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Well, the Chinese and the Indians did a good job of it for millenia. They'll get their's

	03-05-2003 00:59									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Don't do it! It's a test!

If you go by Abraham, passing the "test" would mean being willing to go through with it (not to mention lying to your family in the process, and they'd probably have to be tricked into buying the bullets for you...).

	03-05-2003 01:01									#36
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quote: not to mention lying to your family in the process, and they'd probably have to be tricked into buying the bullets for you

Way too much thought on this one... your begining to scare me

	03-05-2003 01:02									#37
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quote: If you go by Abraham, passing the "test" would mean being willing to go through with it

Yeah, but everyone knows about that 'test' now! This would have to be different test .

	03-05-2003 01:05									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Way too much thought on this one... your begining to scare me

Just using the Biblical account as an example, as Abraham lies to his kid to get him to the place for doing the sacrifice, and even makes the kid carry the woods he's going to use to burn him up!

	03-05-2003 01:06									#39
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If god told me to do that then I'd tell him to suck it and then convert to buddism.

	03-05-2003 01:29									#40
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I'd tell this usurper to feck off

	03-05-2003 01:31									#41
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003

I hope that's in jest...

	03-05-2003 01:50									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Right. If he's so impotent he can't kill my family members himself, I'd bet he's damned easy to take out. The Jews did in his kid real easily, didn't they?

ok then, go ahead. if you ever meet god, take that attitude towards him if that is what you will do. you'll get what u deserve

	03-05-2003 01:53									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi ok then, go ahead. if you ever meet god, take that attitude towards him if that is what you will do. you'll get what u deserve

I notice you didn't answer the question, didya? Chicken. Bwock, bwock!

So come on...will you butcher your innocent loved ones because God doth command it?

	03-05-2003 01:54									#44
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I think Spec is right on. No sane and rational God would do this without the intervention of drink and lots of it (and as Tom Waits, said, "There ain't no Devil, there's just God when he's drunk").

I think the problem some people are having with the premise of this thread is that we're presuming that the God in question is the God of the Christian New Testament -- that is, good, caring, loving, devoted to the welfare of all people everywhere, etc. That God would, of course, not act in the specified fashion.

But what if God's a pr!ck? What if God likes to mess with people just because he's God and he can? What if the only thing that really matters to God is obedience to God, no matter how ridiculous and destructive his whims might be? Those are more interesting questions, IMO.

Last edited by Ubergeek on 03-05-2003 at 02:01

	03-05-2003 01:56									#45
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I'd tell him that my name isn't Abraham.

	03-05-2003 01:58									#46
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quote: The Jews did in his kid real easily, didn't they?

Yeah, but that litte incident was covered up by rumors that it was an act of god, or that god allowed it.

quote: But what if God's a pr!ck? What if God likes to mess with people just because he's God and he can? What if the only thing that really matters to God is obedience to God, no matter how ridiculuous and destructive his whims might be? Those are more interesting questions, IMO.

God is gentle, god is kind

The lord giveth, and the lord taketh away

like the quote in Slowws Religious Quote thread

If absolute power corrupts absolutly, what does that say about god?

	03-05-2003 02:02									#47
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quote: So come on...will you butcher your innocent loved ones because God doth command it?

The creator would have it's own motives, who are you to speculate that my loved ones would be innocent?

	03-05-2003 02:03									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ubergeek But what if God's a pr!ck? What if God likes to mess with people just because he's God and he can? What if the only thing that really matters to God is obedience to God, no matter how ridiculuous and destructive his whims might be? Those are more interesting questions, IMO.

Precisely. Any God who would command a loyal follower to murder his own loved ones is an evil, sadisctic **** and deserves to be disobeyed. If God ordered such a thing, then it would be proof he is in no way the kind, loving God people tend to think of (though why even believers in the New Testament think the God described therein is so lovey-dovey, I don't know).

If you were to learn that God is a rotten bastard, would you still want to obey him? If you obey an evil God only to avoid Hell, does that make you any better than those who killed for any other mass-murderer to avoid some sort of punishment?

	03-05-2003 02:03									#49
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The Lord may giveth and the Lord may taketh away, but if the Lord telleth me to shoot my family, he's going to find my wingtippeth up his asseth.

	03-05-2003 02:06									#50
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In my life I've met these self appointed religous figures:

1) A prophet - who insisted that the Bible said Saddam would occupy California in the Mid '90s.

2) A Bride of Christ who goes to the psych ward 4 times a year.

3) A destitite minister who's been trying to go to Jerusalem for 3 years because she says only she can bring the Celestal City down from heaven by that pilgramage.

That question reminded me of Star Trek V, the crew of the Enterprise visited "God". "God" asked Kirk if he could use his starship to spread his word. Kirk asked Whydoes God need with a starship, while the rest of the crew tried to shut Kirk up. "God" got mad, and the crew realized it wasn't God. It turned out later he was a dangerous criminal. This is another good time to question authority.

	03-05-2003 02:07									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu The creator would have it's own motives, who are you to speculate that my loved ones would be innocent?

What difference does that make? God clearly has the power to smite them himself. Asking you to do it is simply sadistic, no matter how you put it. Why does God need executioners?

The creator's motives could be evil. Why should you indulge them?

	03-05-2003 02:08									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov If you were to learn that God is a rotten bastard, would you still want to obey him? If you obey an evil God only to avoid Hell, does that make you any better than those who killed for any other mass-murderer to avoid some sort of punishment?

If God does exist (a proposition I do not accept, but for the sake of argument), then do all morals flow from Him? That is, it it possible to be immoral while obeying a direct order from God, the arbiter of morality?

	03-05-2003 02:08									#53
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quote: Of course, I expect a %100 return of yes from any middle eastern posters.

Eh?

100% of the ME posters are atheists.

	03-05-2003 02:14									#54
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic In my life I've met these self appointed religous figures: 1) A prophet - who insisted that the Bible said Saddam would occupy California in the Mid '90s. 2) A Bride of Christ who goes to the psych ward 4 times a year. 3) A destitite minister who's been trying to go to Jerusalem for 3 years because she says only she can bring the Celestal City down from heaven by that pilgramage. 4) A promise Keeper who jumped out of a 3rd story window to provr his faith. That question reminded me of Star Trek V, the crew of the Enterprise visited "God". "God" asked Kirk if he could use his starship to spread his word. Kirk asked Whydoes God need with a starship, while the rest of the crew tried to shut Kirk up. "God" got mad, and the crew realized it wasn't God. It turned out later he was a dangerous criminal. This is another good time to question authority.

	03-05-2003 02:15									#55
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I have no idea. If I was already halluscinating badly enough that I thought GOD told me to kill my family, I really have no idea how I would react. I'd be out of my head.

If I wasn't crazy, I'd try and kill GOD. He shouldn't exist.

	03-05-2003 02:27									#56
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quote: If God does exist (a proposition I do not accept, but for the sake of argument), then do all morals flow from Him?

Yes, that is what I was pondering, too.

quote: In my life I've met these self appointed religous figures: 1) A prophet - who insisted that the Bible said Saddam would occupy California in the Mid '90s. 2) A Bride of Christ who goes to the psych ward 4 times a year. 3) A destitite minister who's been trying to go to Jerusalem for 3 years because she says only she can bring the Celestal City down from heaven by that pilgramage. That question reminded me of Star Trek V, the crew of the Enterprise visited "God". "God" asked Kirk if he could use his starship to spread his word. Kirk asked Whydoes God need with a starship, while the rest of the crew tried to shut Kirk up. "God" got mad, and the crew realized it wasn't God. It turned out later he was a dangerous criminal. This is another good time to question authority.

You know, you really didn't answered the original question, you made a new one, based to Star Trek, and indirectly answered to it.

quote: The creator's motives could be evil. Why should you indulge them?

The 'creator', as I see the term 'god', has made everything in the universe, including, in the long run, you, so you would be actually it's direct offspring. So, mentally, you're actually just a small part of it. Also, since it's the creator of everything, it will also know everything what happens inside it's creation, including the following reaction of yours. You think that everything which directly comes from it isn't under it's control?

From my current point of view, resistance would be pretty pointless, really.

	03-05-2003 02:47									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu Yes, that is what I was pondering, too.

Offhand I can't remember it, but there is a passage(s) within the Old Testament wherein God specifically says he was tempted to commit evil acts. If God can be tempted to commit evil, then clearly morality is something that transcends even the actions of God.

quote: The 'creator', as I see the term 'god', has made everything in the universe, including, in the long run, you, so you would be actually it's direct offspring. So, mentally, you're actually just a small part of it. Also, since it's the creator of everything, it will also know everything what happens inside it's creation, including the following reaction of yours. You think that everything which directly comes from it isn't under it's control? From my current point of view, resistance would be pretty pointless, really.

If God is going to condemn me to Hell for refusing to commit something he Himself commanded not to do, and something which every society has recognized as being evil, then I can only conclude God is evil and unworthy of my obeisance. What point is there in resisting in this case?

Well, I don't have to murder my loved ones, first of all. Can you imagine how psychologically damaging that would be? What kind of immoral person would agree to kill their own kin to avoid going to Hell? Talk about selfish! If God then murders them on his own or through some other agent, I can hold that up as proof of his evilness.

Of course, practically speaking, I'm screwed either way, but at least if I resist, I get to spend my eternity in Hell comforted by knowing I am, in fact, morally superior to the tyrant who put me there.

	03-05-2003 02:49									#58
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An interesting caveat to test the truly brainwashed:

What if there would be no punishment for disobeying the command? God comes down, orders you to murder your family, but he won't condemn you to Hell if you refuse...your fate will be unchanged by your decision here. What do you do now?

	03-05-2003 03:01									#59
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Erm, why would it punish you, since it already knows your answer before he comes and asks the question.

quote: I get to spend my eternity in Hell comforted by knowing I am, in fact, morally superior to the tyrant who put me there.

It seems that we don't share the same ethics here... so that could explain our different answers.

quote: Offhand I can't remember it, but there is a passage(s) within the Old Testament wherein God specifically says he was tempted to commit evil acts. If God can be tempted to commit evil, then clearly morality is something that transcends even the actions of God.

Oh, sorry then. I've read the Old Testament for a few times, but only to seek parts which I could use against certain christians which are all the time trying to convert me, or at least to assure me from their superiority.

	03-05-2003 03:03									#60
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So if you don't believe in the Old Testament, where is your morality derived from, if it is God-given? Some other religious doctrine, or your own personal intuition on what is right and wrong?