03-05-2003 03:12									#61
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I have my own beliefs, and I do not mix ethics with religion, as weird as it might sound to many.

	03-05-2003 03:14									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I hope that's in jest...

Oops...edited for smiley face.

Thanks Boris.

	03-05-2003 03:17									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu I have my own beliefs, and I do not mix ethics with religion, as weird as it might sound to many.

But if you believe everything stems from God, then doesn't God have to be the basis for your moral system?

What tells you that it is immoral to commit murder?

	03-05-2003 03:23									#64
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quote: What tells you that it is immoral to commit murder?

Laws are agreements between citizens to maximize efficiency.

The way I see it, if murders would be legal, that would mean that those who are good in killing people would survive, but those who would be intelligent and talented in other areas, would die. This is one of the basic reasons why murders are illegal.

	03-05-2003 03:24									#65
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I'm not asking you why it is illegal or legal. I'm asking you if you believe murder is morally wrong/unethical, why do you believe it to be such? From where is your ethical point of view derived?

	03-05-2003 03:27									#66
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Ethics and morals can come from different sources. Social values can be the only system necessary for some.

	03-05-2003 03:28									#67
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I'm not against murder because it would be fundamentally wrong, I'm against it because the long-term effects to all members of the community (which shares these laws) would be negative (from their own points of view), if it would be allowed.

EDIT:

quote: From where is your ethical point of view derived?

I spent a lot of time to tinker with my ethics, when I was a small child. I've developed my own ethics, which are based to various things I've heard and read about.

	03-05-2003 03:38									#68
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I'd hail him with biblical contradictions for a few hours

	07-05-2003 04:43									#69
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Interesting. Both atheists and Christians avoid a direct answer to the question, on different grounds, yet you do not see Boris mocking the atheists.

quote: I have no idea. If I was already halluscinating badly enough that I thought GOD told me to kill my family, I really have no idea how I would react. I'd be out of my head.

No, for the sake of the question, I'll assume that I am really seeing God, and God is really speaking to me.

quote: What if there would be no punishment for disobeying the command? God comes down, orders you to murder your family, but he won't condemn you to Hell if you refuse...your fate will be unchanged by your decision here. What do you do now?

Actually, as a Christian, my fate is sure, so I am already working under this assumption.

quote: Offhand I can't remember it, but there is a passage(s) within the Old Testament wherein God specifically says he was tempted to commit evil acts.

Well if you don't know where, then I'll assume that you are wrong. God cannot do what is evil, because good is a part of his nature. Therefore, God will not command what is wrong.

This is in actuality, a rather robust divine command theory, and the heart of the problem.

Abraham trusted God to provide a lamb for the sacrifice rather than his son, because his son was a gift from God, to Abraham. This is why God cannot ask you to kill your family because your family comes before you, rather than you to your family. Therefore the Abraham analogy does not work.

quote: The creator's motives could be evil. Why should you indulge them?

Why do you believe this Boris? I'd love you to cite the passage so that we could go over this problem.

quote: This is another good time to question authority.

Actually, I agree with this. God showed himself to Abraham, and Abraham trusted what he said, long before the question of Isaac. One way Jesus used to prove his identity is to talk about details of a person's life no one else could know about except for him. I would expect God to demonstrate something like this before asking me to do something of this level.

If God gave me a son, like Abraham, and then asked of me the same faith, I would hope to be able to share the same trust in God that Abraham did. Whether I actually do so when confronted, I don't know.

	07-05-2003 04:46									#70
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obiwan, the problem is that you are arguing from the perspective of a Christian talking about the Christian God, and are only entertaining the question from that specific viewpoint. But what if the Christian tenets that say "God is Love" are utterly wrong? That's the crux of the question.

	07-05-2003 05:20									#71
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Ubergeek:

quote: But what if the Christian tenets that say "God is Love" are utterly wrong?

Do you know the text you quote?

1 John 4:7-10

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[2] into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[3] our sins.


If we are wrong in this, we have a faith in nothing.

Secondly, I want to know why you would suspect this to be false.

	07-05-2003 05:31									#72
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obiwan,

I wasn't quoting any text. I was engaging in speculation around a point of philosophy and ethics and exploring the ramifications of the hypothetical question that forms the basis of this thread. I was not engaging in this from a Christian point of view, as the question at the top of the thread was not explicitly posed from a Christian point of view.

I do not believe in the Christian God any more than I believe in Odin, The Thunderbird, Krishna or Cthulu, and for the same reason -- there is not a single shred of evidence to support the existence of any of those gods (or any other you might name) that does not depend entirely on faith to be accepted.

But of course, that's not the point of this thread, and I won't go any further with this except to point out that the hypothetical at the top of the thread implicitly supposes that the Christian tenet of a loving god is incorrect, since a loving God would not pose the issue in the first place. You can throw all the Bible verses you want at it and it won't change the fact that the hypothetical is talking about something you're NOT talking about, and the "evidence" you're bringing to bear on the issue is entirely irrelevant to the question and any "answer" it might have for a given individual. Indeed, this entire discussion is more or less OT.

	07-05-2003 06:01									#73
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Old Testament is a piece of sh1t.

	07-05-2003 06:10									#74
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quote: hypothetical at the top of the thread implicitly supposes that the Christian tenet of a loving god is incorrect, since a loving God would not pose the issue in the first place.

Indeed. Now you understand the reticence of the other Christians to answer such a loaded question.

	07-05-2003 06:14									#75
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First Id ask him if he had the right adress, if he said yes then Id ask him for some ID, and as he was digging trough his pockets Id slam the door on his foot!

	07-05-2003 06:19									#76
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No. Simply no.

If god asked me to do that, then I would want to spend eternity away from him!

	07-05-2003 07:03									#77
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obiwan,

I understood it before. I just didn't feel like engaging in a "Why don't you believe in my particular version of God" threadjacking.

	07-05-2003 07:13									#78
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Neither did I.

	07-05-2003 07:18									#79
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Didn't God tell Abraham to kill his son or something?

	07-05-2003 07:18									#80
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I would ask him for the reason, and unless he answers with a good one, I'd point behind him, saying "look over there!" and then shoot him when his back when he turned around.

That's of course assuming that God is really gullible.

	07-05-2003 07:20									#81
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Jag,

You could just confuse such a deity by repeatedly mumbling, "adumbgodsayswhat?"

	07-05-2003 07:20									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Didn't God tell Abraham to kill his son or something?

Sava, you impress me with your extensive biblical knowledge. You know every last detail of the book you hold so dear.

	07-05-2003 07:29									#83
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quote: Didn't God tell Abraham to kill his son or something?

Genesis 22:2,9-10

Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."


The sacrifice comes somewhat later.


When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

	07-05-2003 07:35									#84
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God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son."
Abe said, "Man, you must be putting me on."
God say "No," Abe say "What?"
God say "You can do what you want, Abe but
The next time you see me comin', you better run."
Abe say, "Where you want this killin' done?"
God said "Out on Highway 61."

All I need to know about the Bible I learned from Bob Dylan.

	07-05-2003 10:50									#85
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I'll just produce the iron chariot I have in my pocket.