06-05-2003 00:51									#61
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quote: There are no valid historical claims.

Then Israel can claim legitimate conquest of the West Bank, etc. and everybody else should just shut their cakeholes.

	06-05-2003 00:56									#62
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great avatar Siro.

	06-05-2003 00:58									#63
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Kropo - there was a time when you were away. And you only recently returned to posting in ME threads. You and jaako have always been fun.

Could you get on ICQ again? I want to make you computer crash again

(joking! I didn't do it! honest to god!)

	06-05-2003 01:01									#64
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Well, the ME threads can get a bit tedious at time. Yes, really. So I haven't been up for it in a while.

	06-05-2003 01:10									#65
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After the end of Babylonian captivity the Jews returned and numerically dominated the Gentile populations in the South, and gradually in areas of the North. The presence of dominant or significant population over a great length of time makes their claim to historical possession valid.

Mkay. What does historical possession have to do with anything, though?

In addition, there had been a significant Jewish population (~30%) in Jerusalem from 70 AD through the 19th century.

Though quite a few were killed by the Crusaders during their sack of Jerusalem.

Should Gaelic speaking peoples be able to claim any lands in North and West Europe just because they were there before the Germanic tribes took over? No, control is a matter of the present and it is not possible to install every displaced people into some hypothetical lands of their origin. So why Israel?

Hmm? I am not anti-Israel.

Then Israel has legitimately conquered Golan, the West Bank, Gaza, and Southern Lebanon.

No such thing as a legitimate conquest. No such thing as a legitimate counter-conquest either.

	06-05-2003 01:20									#66
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quote: Though quite a few were killed by the Crusaders during their sack of Jerusalem.

which is spanky but doesn't change the fact that they still remained there.

quote: No such thing as a legitimate conquest. No such thing as a legitimate counter-conquest either.

Then what are you doing living on unlegitimately conquered indian land? You're legitimizing it's conquest by living in canada

	06-05-2003 01:20									#67
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On historical possession: you were claiming Jews had none.

On legitimate conquest: How do you propose borders be established, then? Should we undo all conquests? Peru surrender Amazon basin lands back to Ecuador? Peru surrender to Spain? Peru surrender to some non-existant Incan Empire?

When we respect national boundaries we legitimize the processes that establish them, and that is conquest. Show me one country whose borders were not established by conquest, hmmm?

	06-05-2003 04:50									#68
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quote: Originally posted by GP Besides I have Horsie on ignore anyway. I found I don't miss anything, since he is to lazy to make real arguments anyway.

Hmmm, must have got GP real good somewhere.

	06-05-2003 05:03									#69
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When we talk about a Jewish homeland we are talking about southern Palestine, Judea. All that is left off the desendents of the northern kingdom is a few hundred Samariatans. So the Palestinians should get everything north of Jerusalem and the Israelis should get everything south. The Temple Mount would be controled by the UN.

	06-05-2003 05:04									#70
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by St Leo "Chretien Rocks " "0wnZ" "No such thing as a legitimate conquest. No such thing as a legitimate counter-conquest either."

Then why don't you go the f*ck back to Europe? We don't want UBERFaggots here.

	06-05-2003 05:29									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka Then why don't you go the f*ck back to Europe? We don't want UBERFaggots here.

Gee Zylka... looking to get banned again I see.

TONE IT DOWN AND STOP WITH THE INSULTS!
Or your next post will be your last this week.

	06-05-2003 05:35									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Odin When we talk about a Jewish homeland we are talking about southern Palestine, Judea. All that is left off the desendents of the northern kingdom is a few hundred Samariatans. So the Palestinians should get everything north of Jerusalem and the Israelis should get everything south. The Temple Mount would be controled by the UN.

hi ,

*cough*

the UN cant even control what they are supposed to be doing on the northern , eastern or southern borders of Israel , .... they have troops all around , watching this , doing that , ..... and they fail , ....

so WHY would they be in charge of the temple mount , ....

have a nice day

	06-05-2003 05:37									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Gee Zylka... looking to get banned again I see. TONE IT DOWN AND STOP WITH THE INSULTS! Or your next post will be your last this week.

Ming is being very tolerant this week. Good to see

	06-05-2003 05:42									#75
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Damn Azazel, is that a chemo-therapied orangutan in your avatar?!?!

UGH

	06-05-2003 05:49									#76
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Damn Zylka, is that a person asking to be banned in your avatar?!?!

UGH.

	06-05-2003 05:51									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow On historical possession: you were claiming Jews had none. On legitimate conquest: How do you propose borders be established, then? Should we undo all conquests? Peru surrender Amazon basin lands back to Ecuador? Peru surrender to Spain? Peru surrender to some non-existant Incan Empire? When we respect national boundaries we legitimize the processes that establish them, and that is conquest. Show me one country whose borders were not established by conquest, hmmm?

Gadsden Purchase. (Just being a weenie. You have a good point.)

	06-05-2003 06:00									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Damn Zylka, is that a person asking to be banned in your avatar?!?! UGH.

What does that mean, if anything?

How does it pertain to my commenting on the ugliness of a suicide bomber?

For what reason should you or I consider a needle or a biohazard symbol a person?

	06-05-2003 06:03									#79
	Increase the size of your Attachments

On legitimate conquest: How do you propose borders be established, then?

I propose that we don't do any more border establishing by conquest. Just leave them where they are now and stick to normal diplomacy.

Then what are you doing living on unlegitimately conquered indian land? You're legitimizing it's conquest by living in canada

I also said that the First Nations can't legitimately counter-conquer Canada.

When we respect national boundaries we legitimize the processes that establish them, and that is conquest.

Not if we agree to respect all national boundaries for the sake of respecting all national boundaries. Quebec separatists are swell chaps who respect national boundaries. Basque separatists, on the other hand...

Show me one country whose borders were not established by conquest, hmmm?

Uh... Norway? Belgium? I don't really care.

	06-05-2003 06:07									#80
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo On legitimate conquest: How do you propose borders be established, then? I propose that we don't do any more border establishing by conquest. Just leave them where they are now and stick to normal diplomacy. Then what are you doing living on unlegitimately conquered indian land? You're legitimizing it's conquest by living in canada I also said that the First Nations can't legitimately counter-conquer Canada. When we respect national boundaries we legitimize the processes that establish them, and that is conquest. Not if we agree to respect all national boundaries for the sake of respecting all national boundaries. Quebec separatists are swell chaps who respect national boundaries. Basque separatists, on the other hand... Show me one country whose borders were not established by conquest, hmmm? Uh... Norway? Belgium? I don't really care.

hi ,

belgium was born out of conquest , .....

one country who's borders are not made by conquest , easy , there are about a dozen , ... monaco , sealand , etc , .....

have a nice day

	06-05-2003 06:09									#81
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I think its clear from the historical record that area was always shared by a number of peoples.

So a political solution needs to take account of that.

	06-05-2003 06:18									#82
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quote: Such as? ( I am not disbuting the fact that William the Conqueror has indeed landed there, but doubting the fact that there is archeological evidence to the landing, the Battle of Hastings, and the existance of William the conqueror. Vikings have been landing on Britannia for many centuries. )

The Norman conquest was an extraordinarily important event at the time, and William the Bastard was an extraordinarily important person. I'm no historian, but I'm absolutely certain that there are tons of chronicles about his conquest and rule of England. The most prominent one is the Bayeux Tapestry, for instance.

Edit: Check out this site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/3532/1066mem.htm