05-05-2003 15:15									#1
	Turn 50 Increase Your PM Length

To be edited by the Consuls and Ministers.

Status:
- Researching map making at 100%
- Luxury Slider at 0%
- 64 gold cash, -3 gpt

Urgent questions & tasks:
FAM: Negotiations with CFC for the wheel?
FAM: Trying to speak to GCA about the CDG's iron.
MoL: Need name for worker 4.
MoL: Need name for city 4 (Incensity?).
decorators: We have a Palace improvement coming to us. What d'ya say, can we upgrade the cave?

Unit movement & actions:
N1 'MerZenary' to attack the Mycenian camp at 8 (N)
N2 'Mao' to move 3 (SE), heading back to the city grid
W2 'BigFree' fortified to move away from where he is, not SE (3) - see our recent chat with GCA; options: SW (1) onto the mountain or N/NE (8/9) to the desert.
W3 'Alva' to move 3 (SE)
W4 'Theseus' to rest one more turn; do not fortify
W5 'BFW' to move SE or E (3 or 6) and then along the coast to scout ??
W6 'Hagbart' fortified in Apolyton
W7 'WhiteBandit' to move back 8 (N) ??
W8 'not_panag' fortified in Apolyton

Settler to found a new city (Incensity?)

Economy:
Apolyton building settler.
Mingapulco building NumMerc; change to Barracks ??
Banatopia building granary.
new city on incense to start building Barracks/Warrior ??

WF:
Apolyton 1, 2, 33
Mingapulco 6
Bananatopia 9

Workers
Worker1 'Dan' building road (completing it at the end of the turn)
Worker2 'Monkee' to move 3 (SE) ??
Worker3 'panag' building mine (completing it at the end of the turn)
Worker4 "???" to move ??? - depends on what city site we choose as #5... iron or horses?

Diplomacy:
CDG: NAP in effect (soon to expire).
CFC: Negotiating...
GCA: NAP in effect (fm Turn 29).

Comment, please, many "plans" (especially those marked with '??') are just suggestions or ideas, not decisions already made.
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Discussion and basic reporting to follow. See the topped thread for comprehensive results.

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Last edited by notyoueither on 06-05-2003 at 13:04

	05-05-2003 15:16									#2
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OK, there is one major issue we need to decide before playing the next turn (affects the movement of Worker 4). Shall our city #5 be build at the west coast, near the horse hill, or SE of Bananapolis, near the iron hill?

Please, discuss.

	05-05-2003 15:34									#3
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Please - discuss the above in the City Placement thread.

We should watch out for CDG as far as their border is concerned. Although we're officially not trespassing, they might become upset with our warrior there.

Please warn CFC that a second CDG warrior is approaching the choke point. If I were CDG, I would send one exploring westwards. Maybe CFC can prevent this, or tell CDG to stay out.

	05-05-2003 17:57									#4
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If anyone cares, I got two cases of Banana Rum that says the settler under production in CDG's capital is going to go E, NE, NE to that hill, or the dyes just beyond it. Bet we find out in 6-8 turns if I'm right.

	05-05-2003 20:56									#5
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Everybody... if there is anyone feeling like pursuing the plan F-P outlined in the other thread, speak up NOW! If there is support big enough, we would have to redirect our settler this turn, rather than having him found Incensity.

I personally do not feel like going that way, but I would respect the will of majority in this case, if the majority spoke up - this is a matter of top-level strategy, not just deciding if it is better to place city #4 here or there... which I consider basically in Consuls' competence to decide based upon info and suggestions available.

With F-P's plan, we have most of the necessary info (resource allocation, economy strength etc.) available. The question stands: do we turn agressive, striking preemptively, or do we quietly build up, getting ready for CDG to come, hoping they would go after GCA first? There are good reasons for both approaches, but it's eventually mostly a matter of one's personal taste, I believe... pretty much the difference between "warmongers" and "builders", I'd say...

I would like to hear more people speaking their mind up. Unless there are people enough expressing their support for F-P's plan, we will stick to the strategy we discussed before - building up. Means: we will found Incensity and work up on our DEFENSIVE rather than offensive forces.

	05-05-2003 21:15									#6
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Please note my plan was a two-fold approach; if we can't ram a city down on their iron source (admittedly unlikely) it still might be a very good idea (especially with what Trip mentions in the other thread) to get one on the hill-river-hill area that they're likely building their OWN road and settler intents towards... if they're coming for us, getting a city out there will force them to deal with us further out from our "heartland" and will also give us a nice foothold. Immortal vs Num Merc with Hill and River is notably in OUR favor. Immortal vs Num Merc on any of the locations our current cities are on is in their favor.

If they aren't coming for us and are just laying groundwork for northern expansion while conducting southern warfare, then we'll have a nice bulwark to watch them from...and a nice location to strike at them when GCA occupies their full attention.

Respectfully, I again submit, we need a SOUTHERN town to interfere with their plans whether we intend to use that town offensively or not. As it stands now they could attack one of two cities (maybe even three if they were ballsy!) with little "commital" until right before their attack. If we get some kind of strategic location to the south going, we can at least force them to deal with that city first, and commit our defense there likewise. It is far easier to defend one location with no improvements sitting around to be pillaged than three locations with the threat of worker-time ruined everywhere.

A southern town does not force us into an offensive posture if we build it on the hill-river-hill junction; but it does let CDG know we're not stupid, and not to "foog" with us.

	05-05-2003 21:20									#7
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However, if they aren't planning war, putting a city down there may start one. (Much like what happened to Lux in the PtWDG, though their city placement was more agressive.)

	05-05-2003 21:29									#8
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The iron-wrenching town WOULD start a war, yes. Goldville is still legally open territory, though. If we're still not absolutely sure of their intentions by the time our settler arrives at Goldville, we could always just stop and plop down there. That river might even be a good boundary line for us to negotiate as a permanent boundary if CDG could be led along those lines. :P

	05-05-2003 21:29									#9
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One question: are we SURE that if we build a city N of that iron deposit, it would fall into the radius of OUR city and not theirs? Considering how much culture is being radiated from their capital? (in 12 turns, they will be expanding one more "culture ring")

	05-05-2003 21:33									#10
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That city would likely flip very quickly. I remember in one of my recent Emperor games, I plopped a city down near the AI capital to try to stop their expansion. Surprise, surprise, the city flipped about 15 turns later.

F-P is right that the Gold City is open territory. It's right in the middle, and it's 3 tiles away from their iron, which would mean they would certainly have to deal with it before progressing to the north. A city there may be very important in the future...

	06-05-2003 12:47									#11
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Go for Gold City, That way we show them that we are prepared for whatever they throw at us. And maybe they will change their target.

	06-05-2003 13:15									#12
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quote: Originally posted by jagjef Go for Gold City, That way we show them that we are prepared for whatever they throw at us. And maybe they will change their target.

I agree.

	06-05-2003 13:25									#13
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Mingapulco building NumMerc; change to Barracks ?? Worker4 "???" to move ??? - depends on what city site we choose as #5... iron or horses?

The 3rd merc adds greatly to our flexibility. We can expect camps to pop up in the North and East at any given time, and we will most likely want to assign a merc to the Iron City settler.

W4 should go into the jungle to start the road regardless. W Monkee can go 1 1 4 and start the road for Horse City. Worker Dan can finish the gap there NE of Poly in good time.

	06-05-2003 13:43									#14
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OK, Worker4 goes to jungle - which one? The one on the coast or the one one tile up the river?

Worker2 'Monkee' goes 1 1 4 then, right?

	06-05-2003 14:45									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Trip That city would likely flip very quickly. I remember in one of my recent Emperor games, I plopped a city down near the AI capital to try to stop their expansion. Surprise, surprise, the city flipped about 15 turns later. F-P is right that the Gold City is open territory. It's right in the middle, and it's 3 tiles away from their iron, which would mean they would certainly have to deal with it before progressing to the north. A city there may be very important in the future...

hi ,

, with a temple and a courthouse it would stay longer , .....

have a nice day

	06-05-2003 21:58									#16
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack OK, Worker4 goes to jungle - which one? The one on the coast or the one one tile up the river? Worker2 'Monkee' goes 1 1 4 then, right?

Building 'back' on the coast is most defensible (furthest from marauders).

Yes, I think I moved WMonkee 1 1 4.

	07-05-2003 01:31									#17
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I say we need cities in the following order:
a) Incensity - for extra production
b) Ironville - in the southeast (move workers to build a road and hook up that iron)
c) Goldville - on the border with CDG.

Going any further than Goldville would give them a reason to become upset.

Founding goldville now would mean that our production will fall behind and that we do not have iron.

	07-05-2003 01:35									#18
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Go BFM. I agree completely!

	07-05-2003 02:22									#19
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I'm not sure I agree with Incensity before Goldville- Goldville is a strategic foothold, and not something we can develop later. Incensity's production if we get rushed in 18 turns by 5-6 Immies won't amount to a hill of beans by then, and if they show up at some indeterminate "later time" then we'll have the time we need to get Incensity going anyhow. Securing our resources and OUR BORDERS seems to me much more important than an eventually productive city and a luxury.

	07-05-2003 03:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon I'm not sure I agree with Incensity before Goldville- Goldville is a strategic foothold, and not something we can develop later. Incensity's production if we get rushed in 18 turns by 5-6 Immies won't amount to a hill of beans by then, and if they show up at some indeterminate "later time" then we'll have the time we need to get Incensity going anyhow. Securing our resources and OUR BORDERS seems to me much more important than an eventually productive city and a luxury.

While I agree with your theory, I don't think it's ultimately practical. If war breaks out soon, Goldville will be an uproductive appendage that will do nothing more than expand our borders and then just sit there and look pretty. It won't help us win a war, nor will it be able to produce effective military units for awhile.

The thing we need to somewhat focus on though is our production capacity. Incensity will be able to ramp up production very soon giving us an extra city to push out units and whatnot. I think it is more important to have to potential production advantage than it is to have a large territory, especially at this moment in time.

	07-05-2003 09:52									#21
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Status:
- Researching map making at 100% (22)
- Luxury Slider at 0%
- 28 gold cash, -3 gpt

Mycenian warrior showed up 3 from W3 Alva.

	07-05-2003 10:31									#22
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If I were CDG, which I'm not (thank God), I'd just walk right by "Goldville" since I'd know that is has no production value and is not a current threat to me. I'd keep one unit to keep an "eye" on it;, but that's it. I'd march some where near Apolyton close to a city that looks like production might be key there and pick some nice jungle with no river crossings to attack accross from.

But I'm not CDG, they may be dumb enough to attack "Goldville"!

	07-05-2003 11:25									#23
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Actions:

N1 'MerZenary' attacks the Mycenian camp at 8 (N). Wins. No damage. +25 gold.
N2 'Mao' moves 3 (SE)
W2 'BigFree' moves 4 (W)
W2 'BigFree' fortified
Note: nye's PtW crashed before sending the save on. Replaying the whole turn again from scratch, he forgot to move W2 and sent the save on leaving him fortified. A note of apology has already been dispatched to GCA. We hope it will not harm our relations - they do not have any settler/unit adjacent, so we are not blocking any moves of theirs anyway...
W3 'Alva' attacks Mycenian warrior at 3 (SE). Wins. No damage.
W4 'Theseus' skips turn to heal
W5 'BFW' moves 3 (SE)
W6 'Hagbart' fortified in Apolyton
W7 'WhiteBandit' moves 7 (NW)
W8 'not_panag' fortified in Apolyton

Settler builds city 'X' (pending permanent name)

Economy:
Apolyton building settler
Mingapulco building NumMerc
Banatopia building granary
City X building Barracks

WF:
Apolyton 1, 2, 33
Mingapulco 6
Bananatopia 9
City X 2

Workers:
Worker1 'Dan' building road (1)
Worker2 'Monkee' moves 1 1 4
Worker3 'panag' building mine (1)
Worker4 '???' moves 2 3

Last edited by vondrack on 07-05-2003 at 12:04

	07-05-2003 12:12									#25
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Why did BFW move SE? He's going to hang around that choke point, is he not?

Has CFC moved both warriors onto the same spot? If so, they're very eager to keep that choke point. If not, they're going to chart CFC territory (please warn CFC about this)

Please rename 'X' to 'Incenseville'.

	07-05-2003 13:07									#26
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I'm so proud to see we are #1 in MFG.!!!

CDG is being a little sneaky up North; trying to get a Warrior by without letteing CFC come through.

CFC will be pissed to say the least unless they have a another unit to fill that space behind them.

	07-05-2003 14:05									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

hi ,

, military service " no 2 " , ..... we should go for the tactic " when two dogs fight for a bone , the third one walks away with it ", .....

have a nice day

	07-05-2003 16:11									#28
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Don't focus too much on the statistic "Military Service". It is something like the number or strength of our military divided by the number of cities or our population. Not a very good measure to benchmark our military strength.

It's better to check the military advisor screen and see whether we're stronger, on average, or weaker than specific civs.

	07-05-2003 16:37									#29
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Let's make sure to keep the warrior by the Iron where he is this turn.... we need to watch and see whether Persia's worker/warrior pair moves N. I kinda wish we'd hopped on that hill, since now we can't tell if they move NE.

P.S.- Manufacturing is all well and good, but our position in "Population" is still worrisome....

	07-05-2003 16:49									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Let's make sure to keep the warrior by the Iron where he is this turn.... we need to watch and see whether Persia's worker/warrior pair moves N. I kinda wish we'd hopped on that hill, since now we can't tell if they move NE.

Right, this should be added to the report, as it will not be visible - the Persian worker has kinda disappeared... at the beginning of our turn, it was not with Barry (the Northern CDG warrior), nor with Bernard (the CDG warrior fortified on their iron hill). I suspect (well, not suspect - it is obvious it actually happened) it was moved somewhere towards the interior of Elucidia.

P.S.: Persia = Elucidia = CDG.