06-05-2003 00:13									#61
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quote: This is exactly why you can't have a scale like this. THERE ARE MORE THAN TWO DAMN IDEOLOGIES!!

Damn, when Sava and I agree, you know you are ****ed .

	06-05-2003 00:15									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: This is exactly why you can't have a scale like this. THERE ARE MORE THAN TWO DAMN IDEOLOGIES!! Damn, when Sava and I agree, you know you are ****ed .

	06-05-2003 00:17									#63
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There are more than two ideologies, however a left-right scale is commonly used for many things, and most people who vote know where their party lies on it. There are far more, but you can still lie somewhere on a left-right line. However there is the problem with economic libertarians who would be right, and authoritarians who would also be right.

However I still think there is a left and right on some things, and so you can have an idea whereabouts you stand.

	06-05-2003 00:24									#64
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quote: the thing is...they don't care who does it....as long as it gets done...that's the difference..

Who is "they" and what is "it?"

quote: Social democrats are capitalists???WTF? No they are NOT...I should know...I live in a country where over 40 % are Social Democrats!!!!!

They are capitalists according to the classical definition of socialism - worker control of the means of production. Of course, since the social democrats have become relatively politically powerful in Europe, social democracy has been associated with socialism.

quote: I still have friends who are anarchists, I don't care what their political opinions are...

Then why did you say that you don't associate with anarchists? In any case, it's pretty clear that either you don't know anything about your friends' political opinions, or your friends have no idea what they're talking about.

	06-05-2003 00:41									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue 5 - I'm a complete centrist. I have some left views, some right views, and many centre ones.

5 on this scale is left of center. Center would be 5.5.

	06-05-2003 00:42									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Thirgaral Social democrats are capitalists???WTF? No they are NOT...I should know...I live in a country where over 40 % are Social Democrats!!!!!

Man, this fallacy is really starting to annoy me.

Canada, the US, Scandinavia, western Europe, Australia, etc, etc, etc. are all social democracies to varying degrees. There are still privately owned companies, stock exchanges, no limits (outside of taxes) to how wealthy one can get on their own, among many other capitalist notions. Just because there are some socialist elements (public health care, education, utilities, etc.) does not mean that capitalism has been stamped out.

	06-05-2003 00:45									#67
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Well, slightly left of centre might be right. According to the political compass, I am -0.35 left, and -5.65 Libertarian.

	06-05-2003 00:48									#68
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Kontiki is right, they are capitalists, however they do not have to be right of centre. Indeed, Social Democrat, in the sense of having good public services and relatively high taxes, would generally be left of centre, even though, since it is not based on a communist market, it is capitalist.

Although Social Democracy could be left enough to be not based on capitalism, but that wouldn't be the norm IMO.

	06-05-2003 00:51									#69
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Winston missed his calling as an actuary.

	06-05-2003 00:53									#70
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Ramo is right, anarchism as and always has been, a sub-set of socialism. All that socialism means is control of the means of production by the people (and since Social Democracy leaves companies in the hands of capitalists it is NOT socialist, merely reformist). However there's a couple ways to put people in control of the means of production, through an intermediary such as the state (state sociailism, marxism etc.) or directly in which case all companies would be owned by their employees (most form of anarchism) and then a few mixed systems such as guild socialism and, arguably Syndicalism.

	06-05-2003 01:12									#71
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No. Socialism is government control.
He's wrong, again.

	06-05-2003 02:02									#72
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Not necessarily. If all companies were owned by their workers, that would be socialism. Indeed, it is what Marx wanted, in some respects IIRC. Government control comes into it in that it would probably never happen without, and so almost always is involved, but it is not a prerequisite for Socialism, IMHO.

	06-05-2003 02:23									#73
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Since I want Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Perle to be shot at the earliest convenient time I guess I would have a pretty low number.

	06-05-2003 02:34									#74
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Agathon: Democrats would still be a little right, or maybe centre, on a worldwide scale.

	06-05-2003 04:28									#75
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I'm a 3

	06-05-2003 04:37									#76
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2 or 3 (voted 2).
I am extremely liberal when it comes to social values, but I am opposed to capitalism and wish for its replacement by a socialistic / guild-socialistic economy. But I want to do it reasonably, without the whining, extremism, and mistakes of too many leftists IMHO.

Oh, and Boshko, thanks for teaching me the word "guild-socialism"

	06-05-2003 04:47									#77
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My IDEAL economic system is that workers share the stock in the corporations evenly, the best mix of socialism and capitalism. Basically all the industries would be Co-ops, like my local gas station and truck stop (Cenex Co-op.).

	06-05-2003 05:01									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Fez http://www.politicalcompass.org Economic: +7.00 Authoritarian: +3.46

Economic Left/Right: -6.00
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.03

	06-05-2003 07:17									#79
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quote: Oh, and Boshko, thanks for teaching me the word "guild-socialism"

Its a pretty interesting synthetis. Look up some of the books GDH Cole wrote in the 1920s if you're interested they're not hard or long.

quote: My IDEAL economic system is that workers share the stock in the corporations evenly, the best mix of socialism and capitalism.

No mix there, that's pure socialism (although having a few other co-op institutions such as banks, wholesale etc. wouldn't hurt).

	06-05-2003 07:47									#80
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moderate in economics, according to the political compass test.

moderate libertarian, politically.

Last edited by Q Cubed on 06-05-2003 at 07:58

	06-05-2003 08:43									#81
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Ramo - why don't you just refer to yourself as a libertarian socialist? That, to me, is different than supporting 'anarchy'

	06-05-2003 08:53									#82
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How about
-As far away as possible.

	06-05-2003 10:38									#83
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quote: No self-respecting anarchist would say that he's a rightist.

Libertarians are always getting labeled anarchists by people who want more government control over our lives than allowed by libertarianism, but if anarchists aren't at the right end of the poltical spectrum, where are the communists and fascists that built up enormous states to control people's lives?

IMO, the various ideologies ~match the 1-10 rankings like this:

1) Totalitarianism - Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Mao
2) Socialism
3) Social democrats
4) Liberalism
5) Conservatism
6) Hamiltonian centrists
7) Anarchism as described by Ramo
8) Madisonian republicans
9) Libertarianism/Jeffersonian democrats
10) Libertarian anarchism/anarcho-capitalists

	06-05-2003 10:48									#84
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Conservatism is in the middle?

Wow, that's almost as hilarious as Hitler being on the far, far left!!

	06-05-2003 10:53									#85
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I voted 5, but relative to this forum i may be a 6 or even a 7

	06-05-2003 11:22									#86
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Imran -

quote: Conservatism is in the middle? Wow, that's almost as hilarious as Hitler being on the far, far left!!

First, Hitler was a totalitarian. Would you put him in the center or on the right where you seem to think you belong?
Second, judging by conservatives (like you :lol, yes, they are in the middle. Look at the conservatives in Congress. They've adopted so many left wing policies originating with liberals that the Founders look like right wing extremists, it just takes them 2 to 4 decades longer. Since you apparently don't see the criteria I used for a left-right spectrum even after I provided examples, the left end of the spectrum is totalitarianism and the right end is government limited exclusively to preserving freedom and property rights. All the levels in between are mere gradients of increasing or decreasing control via government leading to either end. Hamilton makes today's conservatives look like social democrats, and in his day, Jefferson and Madison were to his right. The fact you've endorsed FDR's New Deal when so many liberals cite him as one of their own ought to tell you how close conservatives are to liberals. That's why liberals and conservatives increasingly fight over social issues while fiscal matters are relegated to whether or not a %1 or
%3 tax cut or increase is too extreme.

	06-05-2003 11:32									#87
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quote: Would you put him in the center or on the right where you seem to think you belong?

The right.

The right/left axis is totally different than the totalitarian/libertarian axis. Right/left deals with economics and morality. The other axis deals with civil liberties and government control.

The left/right split doesn't give a damn about totalitarianism except if it has effects on the economy or morality.

quote: The fact you've endorsed FDR's New Deal when so many liberals cite him as one of their own ought to tell you how close conservatives are to liberals.

But there is absolutely NO WAY conservatives are centrists. That's utterly foolish and ridiculous. William Bennett, who you refered to in the other thread is an example of someone on the far-right.

The left/right, goes:

10 - 'True' Communists / Command Communists
9 - Anarchists
8 - Socialists
7 - Social Democrats
6 - Moderate-left
5 - Centrist
4 - Moderate-right
3 - Libertarian (far right economically, left morally)
2 - Conservative
1 - Fascist (super far right morally)

	06-05-2003 11:45									#88
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politics? I don't follow politics

	06-05-2003 12:23									#89
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Imran -

quote: The right. The right/left axis is totally different than the totalitarian/libertarian axis.

I'm using the latter, your "economics and morality" is either redundant (economics) or illogical (morality).

quote: Right/left deals with economics and morality. The other axis deals with civil liberties and government control.

So explain why Hitler was on the right with you.

quote: The left/right split doesn't give a damn about totalitarianism except if it has effects on the economy or morality.

Doesn't totalitarianism inherently involve (im)morality and economics?

quote: But there is absolutely NO WAY conservatives are centrists. That's utterly foolish and ridiculous. William Bennett, who you refered to in the other thread is an example of someone on the far-right.

And yet he endorses Social(ist) Security, Medicaid, Medicare, and a host of fiscally left wing ideas. What exclusively right wing ideas does he endorse? Mainly "social" issues? Yup, when money is involved tangentially at most, he's a right winger and becomes left wing or centrist once money is being handed out. Btw, don't conservatives relish how they are mainstream America and those loony liberals are out of touch with the American people? Wouldn't that make conservatives "centrists" by definition.

quote: The left/right, goes: 10 - 'True' Communists / Command Communists

Isn't that totalitarianism?

quote: 9 - Anarchists

So we've gone from advocates of total economic control to little or no economic control.

quote: 8 - Socialists

And back in the other direction. I had a problem placing (Ramos' brand) anarchism on the list too. But at least I got them and the communists on different sides of the spectrum.

quote: 7 - Social Democrats

Sounds about right.

quote: 6 - Moderate-left

A person who likes some socialism?

quote: 5 - Centrist

I'll join you out on that limb.

quote: 3 - Libertarian (far right economically, left morally)

Libertarians believe it's moral to confiscate 50-70% of your labor? Furthermore, why do you consider "morality" more right wing than economics? The libertarian desire to limit government to protecting freedom and property is not an endorsement of all personal behavior, just a limit on government. I know libertarians who believe drug use and prostitution to be immoral.

quote: 2 - Conservative 1 - Fascist (super far right morally)

You have autocrats at both ends of the spectrum. What does it mean to be right or left morally?

	06-05-2003 12:51									#90
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