08-05-2003 03:05									#121
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Imran -

quote: Aru? Like WHO?!

Every liberal who wants anti-discrimination laws because racism is immoral, look at Agathon's thread on the Masters banning women. Don't tell us you've never heard liberals say a certain behavior, like racism, is just fine and dandy.

quote: Communalism being on the left and monarchism being on the right?

Communalism was on the right when it was voluntary, it joined monarchism on the left when it became involuntary.

quote: You may be the only person in the world to call Falwell's moral to be left of center!!

You need to read slower, I said his desire to use government to impose his morality on others is left wing. I could care less what he thinks of an issue in moral terms, only if he thinks force should be used to make us behave accordingly. I clearly pointed out that Falwell need not agree with Jesse Jackson on what is moral for both to be on the left, only that both believe government exists to impose their morals on the rest of us (you left my explanation out of that quote, i.e., took it out of context).

quote: No ****, but a totalitarian can decide to have capitalism or communism. He can be a right-winged guy like Pinochet or a left-winged guy like Stalin.

They were both dictators, so why put them on different wings?

quote: Well whoop-de-****ing-do!

Is that how you admit being wrong? Show a little class for a change.

quote: When everyone else (including fellow Libertarians) says Hitler, Mussolini, and Pinochet is on the right and you say he is a leftist, you are the one who is WRONG!

I see only you claiming Hitler was right wing, but so what if you can find people on the left who don't like being associated in any way with Hitler to adopt your illogical left-right spectrum with dictators on both the left and right. I've clearly said in this thread I reject the spectrum you are using and I've explained why as well as the rationale for the one I'm using.

quote: The left-right spectrum has nothing to do with state power. It original comes from the French Assembly when the Monarchists (you know, big state guys) sat on the RIGHT (totally blowing your insane idea that totalitarianism is always on the left) and the Communists and Liberals sat on the LEFT.

Are you a monarchist? If not, why are you on the right with the monarchists? Yes, Imran, it originated with seating arrangements, that's not what people use it for now and you know it. Btw, did these monarchists and liberals in the French assembly agree on the level of state power? Of course not, so the seating arrangements did reflect the views of people regarding state power. Also, if those monarchists were the big government guys, and, by implication, the liberals and communists were the small government guys , how do you explain the small government guys becoming the big government guys and the formerly big government guys ostensibly becoming the smaller government people?

Drogue -

quote: It could impose their morals that they think people should decide for themselves, that they think thigns should be legal, and that they believe in Libertarianism. They are enforcing Libertarianism on others. A bit shakey yes, but it is a somewhat point IMHO.

More like a major earthquake, to impose on others means to interfere in their decisions. Being free to make your own decisions is not an imposition unless you have multiple personalities .

	08-05-2003 03:06									#122
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

thread too confusing
many long words
waving black flag beetter!

	08-05-2003 09:25									#123
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Is that how you admit being wrong?

Because your opinion is right while the rest of the world's is wrong . Grow up!

quote: Btw, did these monarchists and liberals in the French assembly agree on the level of state power? Of course not, so the seating arrangements did reflect the views of people regarding state power. Also, if those monarchists were the big government guys, and, by implication, the liberals and communists were the small government guys , how do you explain the small government guys becoming the big government guys and the formerly big government guys ostensibly becoming the smaller government people?

Jeez, did you learn anything in school? Obviously not.

Monarchists, liberals, and Communists did not exactly agree on the level of state power. However, both Monarchists (far-right) and Communists (far-left) believed in a large state. So you had big state people on BOTH sides of the aisle.

Are you really saying that you are a left-winger because you don't agree with Monarchism (which was a right-wing ideology)?

Over time, the right has always been conservative (ie, for the status quo) or reactionary (ie, going back to another past status quo). The left has always been progressive and liberal (ie, against the present and past status quo). Libertarians are on the right because they are reactionaries. So are Fascists (reactionaries).

	08-05-2003 10:05									#124
	Put an end to popups!

Imran -

quote: Because your opinion is right while the rest of the world's is wrong . Grow up!

The rest of the world agrees with you? I asked why morality was considered more right wing than economics and you said, "because we all do". I don't, and "we" all don't. You do, and maybe some other people do, but we all don't. Don't try to pass off your ridiculous generalisations as fact only to insult people who point out the flaws with your generalisations.

quote: Jeez, did you learn anything in school? Obviously not.

I learned the difference between facts and generalisations, where did you learn "we" all believe morality is more right wing than economics (whatever that means)?

quote: Monarchists, liberals, and Communists did not exactly agree on the level of state power. However, both Monarchists (far-right) and Communists (far-left) believed in a large state. So you had big state people on BOTH sides of the aisle.

Which is why using a 200+ year old seating arrangement to determine the location of today's left-right ideologies is absurd.

quote: Are you really saying that you are a left-winger because you don't agree with Monarchism (which was a right-wing ideology)?

I already said monarchism was/is left wing, not right wing. Read
s-l-o-w-e-r.

quote: Over time, the right has always been conservative (ie, for the status quo) or reactionary (ie, going back to another past status quo). The left has always been progressive and liberal (ie, against the present and past status quo). Libertarians are on the right because they are reactionaries. So are Fascists (reactionaries).

Does that mean conservatives want a monarchy? Once the liberals and communists get their ideology legislated, wouldn't they become conservative? What were the Founders? "Progressives"? If autocrats are at both ends of the left-right spectrum, where are the people who oppose the autocrats?

	08-05-2003 12:03									#125
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Drogue It could impose their morals that they think people should decide for themselves, that they think thigns should be legal, and that they believe in Libertarianism. They are enforcing Libertarianism on others. A bit shakey yes, but it is a somewhat point IMHO.

1997 Merriam Webster Dictionary
Impose:
1. To establish or imply by authority (a tax), To establish by force (imposed a government) 2. obtrude (imposed herself on others) 3. to take unwarranted advantage of something (on her good nature) [i]n[/n] imposition

So since Libertarians are against impostion, to say Libertarians are for imposing anything or that they impose anything is an outright lie, and an obvious lack of understanding of either A: Libertarianism, or B: the word impose.