07-05-2003 04:50									#31
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon oedo I would say that before you commit ur first crime the idea is to prevent crime. but once u have broken the law and taken away someone else's rights? life? liberty? money? then there is some definite punishment involved w/ me. and I see no problem w/ taking away a felon's right to vote.

I know about three theories, why crime law is (said to be) useful.

1. general prevention: people shall be prevented from committing crimes because they know they will be punished for crimes.
2. individual prevention: people who turned out beeing criminals shall be reintegrated into society. they shall learn their lesson for the next time.
3. theory of retaliation: serving the human need for justice.

(a fourth reason is conceivable: people should get imprisoned, so they canīt do any harm to the people outside anymore. as long as I studied law, this didnīt make it to an official theory here in Germany and - as I suppose - in many other countries as well. but we donīt need this theory here, since taking away the right of voting doesnīt shelter anyone in anyway.)

itīs up to you, if you believe in general or individual prevention. but there are provable cases where individual prevention has worked. the general prevention theory is hard to prove. I simply believe in it and I also believe that taking away further civil rights would undermine this aim.
I also donīt see a reason, why the human need for justice and revenge should be more important than keeping the crime rate as low as possible in a society. also i think the punishment itself should be able to fulfill the human need for justice, so thereīs no need for any further restriction.

	07-05-2003 04:50									#32
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quote: As I see it you need a good reason to strip someone of their right to vote in a democratic country.

the way it's been done in the past is that if you committed a felony, you lose your right to vote. back then, i suppose it was a pretty good reason. these days, it seems like a justifiable reason.

it's the status quo. is there an immediate and pressing need to change it?

	07-05-2003 04:54									#33
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sorry oedo I believe in punishment for crimes. if u violate another persons rights etc etc... then u should be punished, ur other considerations are noted and I agree. but u leaving out simple human responsibility is not something I can do. maybe I'm being idealogical, but thats just how it is w/ me.

	07-05-2003 04:55									#34
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon I dont know of the NYC program. can they expell ppl from the program? are they selective about who enters the program?

Yes, people can be expelled and yes they are selective. No violent criminals are elligible, so I'm sure this skews the results. Drug criminals, however, are eligible, and they are very recidivist.

quote: I'm not against effective rehabilitation but unlike liberals I place the onus on the person, not the society.

I don't care about onus. For me, what is important is being protected from criminals. I don't want them hurting me, anyone I know or anyone at all for that matter. Get them away from law-abiding people. That's what's important. But, do so in a way that, once they come back into society, they aren't a danger to us. At a certain point, punishment goes beyond corrective and becomes counter-productive. If you beat the bejeezuz out of a dog every time he makes a mistake, you aren't teaching him not to make mistakes, you're teaching him to fear and hate you. Humans are similar in that way.

On top of that, it would be nice that if, once returned to society, ex-criminals could actually contribute to it. Conservatives will gnash their teeth about being soft-hearted, but I'm looking out for mine. A guy who has a shot at getting a job is a guy who isn't looking to break into my apartment or trying to smash my face in to steal my bike.

	07-05-2003 04:57									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer a friend of mine's father is a prison guard and he says that many criminals return within a year of being released and don't seem to mind.

Prison guards have a vested interest in recidivism. Without it, they'd lose their jobs.

	07-05-2003 04:58									#36
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Is it? I thought that a minority of states prohibit ex-felons from voting.

	07-05-2003 04:58									#37
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To be honest, I don't care. No-one that I know and care about is likely to become a felon.

Besides, if I were heading to jail, my ability to vote or not would be very low on my priority list.

	07-05-2003 05:02									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer 1 in 4 black males in some states are ineligible to vote due to being convicts

That's 1 in 4 black males under 30 if my memory serves. In any event our society should be color-blind and enforce the law equally even if one group is satistically more likely to commit crime.

	07-05-2003 05:03									#39
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haha yes I think it is an interesting point that if u make prison better than a ghetto u might be counter-counter productive. or some such thing.

	07-05-2003 05:13									#40
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Former inmates should have their right to vote after a "probationary" period. Hawaii is considering to have their inmates access to vote after their release. Unfortunately, it is not a big thing so i don't think it will be even introduced to the legislation.

However, some professors here are discussing a movement to reform Hawaii's prisons from penitentiaries to rehabilitation centers.

	07-05-2003 05:18									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Prison guards have a vested interest in recidivism. Without it, they'd lose their jobs.

Exactly. California's prison guard Union makes sure they have friendly politicians in office that attests to this.

	07-05-2003 05:18									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin That's 1 in 4 black males under 30 if my memory serves.

Nope, it's all Black males. Nationally 1 in 4 Black men are either in jail, prison, parole or probation.

	07-05-2003 05:22									#43
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to be honest, with me for example... i dont know how i'd manage if my complicated matters with Temple U didnt work out... in some ways, it'd be easier for me to just get arrested and be in jail than try to figure out how to make a living.

	07-05-2003 05:23									#44
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I certainly agree with Ming ( ), once your term is done, you have served your time and all your rights should be returned to you, specially voting, which is the most important of all rights a citizen has.

	07-05-2003 05:24									#45
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Nope.
That's part of the punishment.

	07-05-2003 05:25									#46
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kinda like what happens here-- you get restricted, then you come back and everything's back to normal...

so to speak.

	07-05-2003 05:27									#47
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Which doesn't solve jack.
Except for me. I straightened up after I saw God.
Damn skippy I did.

	07-05-2003 05:27									#48
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yes

	07-05-2003 05:28									#49
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon sorry oedo I believe in punishment for crimes. if u violate another persons rights etc etc... then u should be punished, ur other considerations are noted and I agree. but u leaving out simple human responsibility is not something I can do. maybe I'm being idealogical, but thats just how it is w/ me.

youīre just a supporter of theory #3 and thereīs nothing wrong with it. nearly everyone wants criminals being punished just for emotional reasons - me included.

but once again this is not the only reason why people become punished and we can look back to milleniums of experience in this issue. the main intention should be keeping a crime rate as low as possible and it turned out that draconian punishments generally arenīt able to serve this aim. just take a look at the crime rates in the US and compare them to those in Middle Europe.

plus, people donīt only get imprisoned for major crimes like murder, rapture or robbery. do you think that someone should also lose his right to vote for a minor crime like stealing or smoking marijuana?

	07-05-2003 05:31									#50
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That's a deranged analogy, oedo; and what's worse, you know it.
With all due respect, of course.

	07-05-2003 05:32									#51
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its not just emotional, its moral. its part of ur responsibility to society etc...

u think draconian doesn't work? try singapore.

I am not entirely certain on my view cuz honestly its never been an issue for me. I don't see any convict rallies to try and votregain their ing rights, and I guess only a minority of states even take them away.

	07-05-2003 05:34									#52
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draconian punishment systems may have some effect in singapore-- but i honestly think most of the reason why there's much less crime is because of the cultural mores.

that's why skorea, japan, and taiwan also have lower crime rates compared to their western counterparts.

	07-05-2003 05:36									#53
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Sloww, yavoon: Iīm too tired to elaborate now but I think you see, what Iīm trying to explain or how I think about it. hold on, this is a very interesting thread.

good night

	07-05-2003 05:39									#54
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I think there is some cultural mores that enforce the idea that it is wrong to commit crime(omg I wish we had that).

but also realize their culture imposes its own draconian measures on those who are criminals. they aren't all about their father mistreating them or their gf dumping them.

	07-05-2003 05:42									#55
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Don't throw pot possession in with murder.

If it's interesting, it's interesting when comparing apples to apples.

Too many of you people think your rights supercede the rights of all others.
Sorry, that isn't how it works.

	07-05-2003 05:43									#56
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I wouldnt be surprised if crime in some Islamic countries is low because of draconian punishments... hard to be a repeat thief if your hands are cut off

	07-05-2003 06:05									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer I wouldnt be surprised if crime in some Islamic countries is low because of draconian punishments... hard to be a repeat thief if your hands are cut off

Crime is very high in many Islamic countries. On the other hand, supposedly lax countries like Britain and Canada have much lower crime rates.

Personally, I think it has to do with our culture which raises individualism to a holy religion and degrades the idea of social responsibility and at the same time has many forces which break down the bonds between people If you are the most important thing there is, don't care about others, and don't have any connection to others, why shouldn't you be a criminal. Until we start caring more about others and being less self-absorbed, we're gonna keep having these problems.

	07-05-2003 06:08									#58
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interesting that you of all people said that... starting to lean towards that good old Christian goodness, chegitz?

	07-05-2003 07:19									#59
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Once you serve your time, that's it. Yes.

	07-05-2003 08:31									#60
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Don't throw pot possession in with murder. If it's interesting, it's interesting when comparing apples to apples. Too many of you people think your rights supercede the rights of all others. Sorry, that isn't how it works.

I don't see how an x-con's ability to vote supercedes any of yours or anyone else's rights.