07-05-2003 09:07									#61
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How many of the men who founded this country were criminals according to the crown?How many men who walked the the corridors of Ellis Island and the portage of Philidelelphia were criminals according to the government?The trend lately is for people to sacrifice their rights in order to feel more secure and any man or government who would take my gun or my vote has a damn good reason to feel insecure because he loves fascism and I love liberty and I'll pay for my liberty while I exact payment from him for his fascism.When they walk out the gate of whatever hell they were sent to for reasons good or bad they are once again my brother and I need my brothers to stand with me so that we can all enjoy freedom. Who fears their vote not you and not me.Take a guess and tell me again about crime and punishment.

	07-05-2003 09:09									#62
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fluff ahoy captain.

	07-05-2003 09:17									#63
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Ex-cons absolutely should be allowed to vote. Disenfranchising these people cuts them off from connections to their communities, what they need last. Responsibility to and solidarity with society is one of the prime factors that keeps crime in check.

	07-05-2003 09:22									#64
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lets not be too dramatic ramo. I think the % of cons who voted before they got convicted is pretty damn small.

	07-05-2003 09:26									#65
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PS Do they want them voting with thier guns or with thier pens because the way things are going pretty soon there are gonna be alot of criminals look at changes in domestic law ,drug law and insurance law soon if your not a republican you are a criminal.I'm so sick of whining little fascist who give the state more and more controle over our lives for the sake of some big money Airlines,Mutual insurance groups,buerocracies(the Police and Child Support Enforcement) I believe that deterence is good to a point but it has gone too far for we now have criminals making the law and the law making criminals

	07-05-2003 09:27									#66
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so your saying the ex-convict who was arrested for shoplifting $14 worth of golfclubs should have their rights revoked?

Bah! This is junk. An individual is still an individual regardless of what they have done. If these people have served their time and are truly on the right path toward rehabilitation, they should have (almost) all their rights reinstated...voting should be one of those rights.

	07-05-2003 09:29									#67
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quote: we now have criminals making the law and the law making criminals

Catchy!

	07-05-2003 09:30									#68
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I obviously am not familiar w/ the state's specific laws. but I imagine spending jail time for 14$ worth of golf clubs u have to have a mile of priors or decline a lawyer. so the extremist example seems unwarranted.

not to mention I dont know any golf clubs that cost just 14$.

as for vandal, I have no idea wutsup w/ him. obviously someone w/ an agenda tho.

	07-05-2003 09:35									#69
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quote: lets not be too dramatic ramo. I think the % of cons who voted before they got convicted is pretty damn small.

Umm... yes, that's the point. They felt disenfranchised by the system, so resorted to crime. Permanently and totally disenfranchising ex-cons insures that they'll continue resorting to crime.

	07-05-2003 09:38									#70
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so they were disenfranchised when they had the right to vote, then they lost it and were like "**** we would have rehabilitated but yall took our right to vote which we never used so now I'm really mad! gna go steal lots!"

ok...

	07-05-2003 09:41									#71
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I didn't say that. Taking away the vote creates another barrier in establishing solidarity with one's community, which leads to more crime.

	07-05-2003 09:45									#72
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There is a case in California where an individual stole $14 worth of golfclubs and this incident was his third offense. Granted, this is only a Californian incident, but this person is going to have to serve a mandatory sentence now. When/If this individual gets out,he'll basically have no rights....same as an assaulter or worse.

Since California has the third-strike rule, it's possible that he could have stolen $5 worht of stuff for his first offense, then $10 worth of stuff for his second offense. Hypothetical grand total-$29. And he gets mandatory jail time now.

	07-05-2003 09:46									#73
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ok so lets run a test. we reinstate ex convicts right to vote. and the crime rate will drop right? I mean we've removed this great political barrier. look how important voting is, its wut drives all of democracy. so surely if we change something this radically we should see a reaction.

I think ur using distant logic. w/o considering the group u r trying to assert it on.

	07-05-2003 09:49									#74
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good. stealing is wrong. .50$, 10 000$. I still dont think there is a 14$ golf club? wut did he steal? a handle?

neway if u have 2 strikes and steal 14$ worth of clubs, SOMETHING IS WRONG W/ U. a lil personal responsibility is probably in order.

	07-05-2003 09:55									#75
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quote: ok so lets run a test. we reinstate ex convicts right to vote. and the crime rate will drop right? I mean we've removed this great political barrier. look how important voting is, its wut drives all of democracy. so surely if we change something this radically we should see a reaction. I think ur using distant logic. w/o considering the group u r trying to assert it on.

I think it's clear that communal solidarity is intrinsically tied to the crime rate. It's questionable that the franchise is strongly tied to communal solidarity. Certainly, it's an element of communal solidarity, and for some people may be very important. Of course, the US prison system is totally incompetent as a form of rehabilitation, so the effect may be limited. My original point is that, taking away the franchise can only hurt ex-cons' rehabilitation.

	07-05-2003 09:57									#76
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it would appear to me that communal solidarity comes from w/in, not handed down by government.

	07-05-2003 10:00									#77
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You think that influencing how the community is run has no impact on communal solidarity?

	07-05-2003 10:04									#78
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yes but the fundamental strength comes from within. and I just dont see the kind of culture there that promotes things that you need for success.

I dont think giving ex cons the right to vote will change the culture. so its like trying to sway this little thing when this big monster looms in the doorway.

	07-05-2003 10:06									#79
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I'm not saying that it's all that important a factor, only that it's significant.

	07-05-2003 10:08									#80
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by yavoon ok so lets run a test. we reinstate ex convicts right to vote. and the crime rate will drop right? I mean we've removed this great political barrier. look how important voting is, its wut drives all of democracy. so surely if we change something this radically we should see a reaction. I think ur using distant logic. w/o considering the group u r trying to assert it on.

I'm not trying to tie a former convicts right-to-vote to the level of crime. What I'm trying to say is that individuals who have taken the road less traveled in life, should have their rights available.

Individuals who have served the sentence that the system has given them, should be treated as "normal" citizens...not second-class citizens.

Even if reinstating a former convicts voting power has no influence at all on the crime rate, these people should benefit from the society that they are in.

quote: good. stealing is wrong. .50$, 10 000$. I still dont think there is a 14$ golf club? wut did he steal? a handle? neway if u have 2 strikes and steal 14$ worth of clubs, SOMETHING IS WRONG W/ U. a lil personal responsibility is probably in order.

I agree that these people should take responsibility for their actions. BUT, after they have served their sentence, they should have their rights given back to them. I do not know the details on this case, but I do know that the actual worth was really low.

	07-05-2003 10:09									#81
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not important just significant. k.

=D

	07-05-2003 10:11									#82
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon I dont think giving ex cons the right to vote will change the culture. so its like trying to sway this little thing when this big monster looms in the doorway.

For myself, it's not a matter of changing the culture, it's a matter of 'the right thing to do'. Ok, it might not make any difference in the long run. But that doesn't mean that it SHOULDN'T be done.

	07-05-2003 10:11									#83
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k franky

	07-05-2003 10:12									#84
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I can see your side of the debate too, so don't get mad.

Good debate!

	07-05-2003 10:12									#85
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When I say that it's not all that important, I mean it's not a primary factor.

	07-05-2003 10:58									#86
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I wonder how the people arguing that it's ok to take away an ex-convicts voting rights would feel if they had their driving licences taken away after they got a parking ticket?

	07-05-2003 12:01									#87
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon its not just emotional, its moral. its part of ur responsibility to society etc...

hmmmm, what is moral and how does moral work?
I think we can agree that moral prevents people from committing crimes. so as long as your conscience tells you not to commit a crime, and as long as you follow your conscience, you behave moral. but does your moral make it necessary that criminals become punished?
or other way round: would you consider a person. who is able to forgive, less moral , than a person, who insists on a punishment?

	07-05-2003 12:07									#88
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quote: Originally posted by el freako I wonder how the people arguing that it's ok to take away an ex-convicts voting rights would feel if they had their driving licences taken away after they got a parking ticket?

It pissed me off to no end. Luckily, I just paid the tickets and got it back.

	08-05-2003 02:12									#89
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The three strikes law still exists in some states? damn I'm surprised. Pennsylvania don't got it.


Oedo:

you're getting into the area of lunacy by saying there should be no punishments for crimes... rapists should be let off the hook?

	08-05-2003 02:29									#90
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oedo I don't think I'm the moral relativist u r. so thats probably where we aren't seeing eye to eye.