08-05-2003 16:34									#151
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No.

They should be treated worse.

	08-05-2003 18:41									#152
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: For Hitler extermination of entire nationalities such as Jews, Slavs, Gypsies and other "inferior" people was THE GOAL.

Nope, He just believed that He should eliminate them to make Germany strong and great,..

quote: Stalin never had such goal. The goal of Stalin's ideology was the creation of better, more justice society, the society were all peoples regardles of nationality and race will be eqal.

I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Do You really believe in what You are saying? Stalin cared only about himself. If He didn't think of people in regard of their nationality, why did He persecute Germans, Poles, Tchechenians, Tatars...
Oh c-mon. He was a ruthless tyran and I doubt He believed in any ideology

quote: Do you know that when nazi invaded Soviet Union they killed more than 13 MILLIONS of Slavic CIVILIANS, overall casulties of Soviet Union in WW2 were about 27 millions of people.

It is proven that the number of 20mln Soviet casualities is highly exagerrated. And 27mln people is something completely nonsense.

quote: Hilter no doubt had the most sinister goals and methods. Stalin had very similar methods, and caused the same results (world war, extermination of millions) but his intentions are debateable.

Look to the answer nr 1

quote: Slightly different goals? You are seriously sick mister. You’re saying that ideology that says that some «inferior» nationalities/races should be completely exterminated is as bad as ideology that says that people of all nationalities have equal rights and equal opportunities? For first ideology it’s absolutely natural and OK to burn children of “inferior” nationalities alive, while it is never, not even a close OK for second ideology.

In USSR, different social groups were doomed to be destroyed. And some nationalities were treaten generally like a social groups, like "Polskie pany"

	08-05-2003 18:58									#153
	Remove this text

Or "litovskije burzhuiny"

	08-05-2003 19:09									#154
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Last I heard they were still singing the praises to Castro; a ruthless dictator who routinely arrests and tortures political decenters, unionists, journalists who don't tow the party line, anti-communists, pro-democracy activists, and the like.

This is right. This form of political correctness is fortunately, at last, disappearing. All the most prominent leftists have now eaten publicly their hats (except Spiffor ).

	08-05-2003 19:31									#155
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Wow, thanks for calling me a prominent leftist
Edit : besides, I don't remember having ever praised Castro, that may explain why I am not eating my words.

	08-05-2003 19:38									#156
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Why apologisers? I dont think he did owt Wrong!!

	08-05-2003 22:30									#157
	Remove this text

IMHO, that would depend on the specific beliefs of both Stalinists and Nazis....if they trust and follow their "idols" to the letter, then they both deserve to be beaten with pointy sticks.

	09-05-2003 07:34									#158
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'll happily defend Castro. Only the most rabid gusanos claim Castro has people tortured. While it's certainly not the most free country in Latin America, torture is not a complaint generally leveled against it. As the only Latin American country without death squads, it seems highly unlikely that they would engage in the torture of dissidents.

Unionists, journalists, and political dissenters are not routinely suppressed. Since the unions have a considerable amount of say in Cuba, I'll just ignore this except to say that Cuba is the only country where I've seen a union meeting speak directly to the President of the republic in so angry a manner. And what was Castro's reply to their complaints? He agreed with them. Neither do jounalists face serious dissent. Although foeign journalists always try and say, "No one can speak freely in Cuba," they also have a tendency to say that the government pretty much ignores them when they want to go off on their own.

As for the political dissidents. Cuba is poor country, like most of Latin America. Most people there average about ten dollars a month in wages. So, how come these political dissidents have computers, and fax machines, and the like? How did they afford such things? Who is paying their bills? Is it not reasonable to suspect that someone with no visible means of support has such luxuries in a poor country? If they aren't working for the US then they are working for the gusanos in Miami. Either way, they're either spies or working for terrorists. I have no sympathy for them.

	09-05-2003 07:48									#159
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If they aren't working for the US then they are working for the gusanos in Miami. Either way, they're either spies or working for terrorists. I have no sympathy for them.

You sound like someone defending Soviet purges.

	09-05-2003 07:51									#160
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

[quote]I'll happily defend Castro.[quote]

Oh, you mean the guy who sided with the Soviet Union, and decided it'd be a good idea to allow IRBMs 90 miles of the coast of the US?

"Duh, let's go ahead and do something totally unnecessary that could provoke WW3"

And before you blast Kennedy and other US leaders for the same types of things, remember with whom you are speaking - I AGREE! Just be consistent, man.

	09-05-2003 08:02									#161
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You sound like someone defending Soviet purges.

Maybe so, but Cuba's old National Guard runs Miami. These people were theives, torturers, and murderers before the Cuban people kicked them out, and the gusanos haven't forgiven them for it. These people have wages a terrorist war against the Cuban people for forty years, one which goes unreported in the US press, but has taken many lives. Cuba has a right to be paranoid when these monsters blow-up Cuban airliners, burn their fields, infect their hogs, mine their roads. Why should I sympathyze with the people who aid them in Cuba?

	09-05-2003 08:10									#162
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Oh, you mean the guy who sided with the Soviet Union, and decided it'd be a good idea to allow IRBMs 90 miles of the coast of the US?

The US made it abundantly clear that it intended to overthrow the revolution by force, despite the fact that the Cubans wanted to have good relations with the United States. It wasn't Cuba that said good-bye to the US. The US drove Cuba into the Soviet's arms. I would have done the same thing if I feared that the US was going to attack me.

Only the real threat of nuclear retaliation saved Cuba. You're the one always saying that we should have the right to escalate to whatever force we feel is necessary to defend ourselves from the police. How is this different?

	09-05-2003 11:51									#163
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Maybe so, but...

Sorry che. You're this close to throwing away your right to complain about the Patriot Act and still stay consistent.

	09-05-2003 12:24									#164
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

DD: I think he's already lost that right and stay consistent at the same time . Funny how lefties will yell and scream about the Patriot Act but back thugs like Castro.

	09-05-2003 21:15									#165
	Support Apolyton

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

	09-05-2003 21:35									#166
	Increase the size of your Attachments

che,

There's a huge moral difference between escalating up enough to defend yourself, and escalating up enough to threaten to destroy everyone around you, whether or not they are involved.

If Cuba asked for Soviet conventional forces, and a membership in a Soviet alliance, that's all well and good. Almost starting WW3 is not so good - and yes, Kennedy was just as much to blame.

	09-05-2003 22:21									#167
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Placing nukes in Turkey aimed at Russia was just as bad as the SU trying to set up nukes in Cuba. Remember, the US moved first.

	10-05-2003 02:24									#168
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Sava Placing nukes in Turkey aimed at Russia was just as bad as the SU trying to set up nukes in Cuba. Remember, the US moved first.

Floyd mentioned that, actually.

What Castro did was reckless, I'll admit, but if it had worked as intended, the US would have been presented a fait acompli. Threatening military action would have been mere bluffing, as Soviet forces in Cuba would have been capable of destroying most Eastern US cities.

This is a fundimental problem with nuclear weapons. If you use them to defend yourself, you risk escalation which could destroy all human life (or enough of it for it to mean the same thing).

The US got lucky, as they were spying on Cuba to prepare for a full-scale invasion, and happened upon the missiles.

	10-05-2003 02:26									#169
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

You're betraying your inner Republican. Next you'll be telling us that you don't believe that War in Iraq was a bad idea and that Dubya is a really great President.

	10-05-2003 02:48									#170
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The US got lucky, as they were spying on Cuba to prepare for a full-scale invasion, and happened upon the missiles.

God, I wish this were true.

I remember that we helped overthrow Battista and bring Castro to power. I recall that he came to New York to visit the UN and there was speculation that he would be invited to the White House. But something during this timeframe really caused relations to sour.

I also remember how appalled we were when Castro executed so many of the former regime. I think this had a lot to do with the falling out that happened.

I also remember that Casto's alliance with the USSR caused a big stir.

What I do not remember is the sequence of events. I think this is important to determine whether Casto allied with the USSR out of fear of the US, or we became unfriendly because of it.

	10-05-2003 02:57									#171
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ned:

Castro was disturbed by the bad treatment some of his aides got... those who were dark enough to be considered black were not admitted into the fancy hotel Castro was staying in.

basically, racism caused the cuban missile crisis.

	10-05-2003 03:10									#172
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The US was not preparing for a full scale invasion. Time has a great series about the Cuban missile crisis filled with authentic white house tapes and commentary of from the people who where in the inner circle and lived through the crisis. I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to get the real scoop on historical events instead of the .net version of history.

	10-05-2003 03:50									#173
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Ned: Castro was disturbed by the bad treatment some of his aides got... those who were dark enough to be considered black were not admitted into the fancy hotel Castro was staying in. basically, racism caused the cuban missile crisis.

That is what caused the craziness that has gone on since '59! I find it hard to believe. Surely Ike should have gone out of his way to make sure Castro was royally treated.

However, there were a lot of executions without trial - shown on TV and the like. I think Ike had a hard time receiving someone like Castro.

	10-05-2003 04:08									#174
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

My memory of sequence of events is confirmed. Castro was highly popular in the US in early 1959. It was not clear then that Castro would go communist and ally with the USSR. But then he began mass executions. This caused Ike to avoid meeting him when Castro visited in April. In June, Castro began negotiations with the USSR. One thing lead to another, and by mid 1960, Cuba was firmly in the USSR camp and Ike was planning the Bay of Pigs.

"Although the anti-Batista purges, and especially the highly publicized "stadium trials," began to elicit stinging criticisms in the U.S. press in late March, U.S. press coverage of the Cuban Revolution was still sympathetic in tone (particularly Herbert Matthew's coverage in the New York Times), but reports of governmental confusion and "chaos" led to growing concern."

http://www.princeton.edu/plasweb/pu...says/castro.htm