08-05-2003 13:08									#121
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quote: THE LAST STAND OF THE UKRAINIAN FAMINE-GENOCIDE DENIERS By ROMAN SERBYN Concluding his review of Douglas Tottle's book Fraud, Famine and Fascism, Wilfred Szczesny writes: "Members of the general public who want to know about the famine, its extent and causes, and about the motives and techniques of those who would make this tragedy into something other than what it was will find Tottle's work invaluable." (The Ukrainian Canadian, April, 1988, p.24) In the era of glasnost, Szczesny could have rendered his readers no greater disservice. For an editor-in-chief of a Ukrainian magazine to invite people to consult Tottle's tract is as appropriate as for a publisher of a Jewish periodical to recommend The Hoax of the Twentieth Century by the Holocaust denier A.R. Butz. lf in Szczesny's statement quoted above the reader substitutes "Holocaust" for "famine" and "Butz" for "Tottle", the affront to the reader's dignity in both cases will become apparent. Tottle is no more interested in discovering the truth about the forced starvation of Ukrainians than Butz about the gassing of Jews. Tottle is a self-confessed famine-genocide denier. No longer able to negate the famine as such, Tottle questions its genocidal character. Traditional famine-denial has been updated to famine-genocide denial, but the essence of the ideological trappings is the same. Today's famine-genocide deniers are the spiritual heirs of the first famine negators, Stalin and those who helped him carry out the most heinous of crimes against the Ukrainian nation or to deny its existence. With his book Douglas Tottle has become a sort of guru to a strange collection of latterday famine-genocide deniers. He has inspired militant articles by Jeff Coplon ("In Search of a Soviet Holocaust", Village Voice, 12 January, 1988); Wilfred Szczesny ("Fraud, Famine and Fascism", The Ukrainian Canadian, April, 1988); and Donne Flanagan ("The Ukrainian Famine: Fact or Fiction", McGill Daily, 22 November, 1988). How vile and trite is the campaign of the famine-genocide deniers should become clear from the following three examples of how Tottle practices the misdeeds of which he accuses others. First, let us consider the photographs of the famine. Tottle latches on to them as if they were the main proof of the historicity of the tragedy and the principle argument for its classification as genocide. Tottle does this because he thinks that the photographs form a weak link in the famine-genocide story: break this link and the whole structure will collapse. Well, this is not so. The famine has a solid documentary basis (documents published in the West and in the Soviet Union) of which the photographs form a very minor (and I might add, dispensable) component. There are few photographs from the 1932-33 famine and we could hardly expect otherwise, since the totalitarian regime wanted to keep the famine hidden and took the necessary measures to ensure this. Many more photographs have come down to us from the earlier Soviet famine of 1921-23. Some of these pictures were eventually used in connection with the second famine and this fact provided Tottle with his basic argument against the famine-genocide: photographs depicting a natural famine of 1921-22 in Russia are used as proof of man-made starvation in Ukraine in 1932-33. To make his accusation stick, Tottle resorts to a mixture of irrelevant truths, half-truths and outright lies. Tottle constantly refers to the Russian famine of 1921-22, but never mentions the contemporaneous famine in Ukraine. Yet most of Tottle's "illustrative" material is taken from Ukraine and not Russia. On page 32, Tottle reproduces three title pages of what he describes as "publications devoted to the Russian famine of 1921-22", even though two of them deal only with Ukraine. One is Holod na Ukraini, an excellent documentary by Ivan Herasymovych based on personal observations and containing excerpts from the Soviet Ukrainian press and a number of photographs. Tottle identifies the second text (the reduced reproduction is almost illegible to the naked eye) as "Dr. Fridjof Nansen's International Committee for Russian Relief, Information No.22, Geneva, April 30, 1922", but fails to give the title of the report contained on that page. It reads: "Famine Situation in Ukrania". With the help of a magnifying glass the reader can decipher the following revealing information about the famine conditions in Ukraine, sent by Nansen's representative from Kharkiv on 22 March, 1922: "(N)ot before the 11th of January of this year could the goubernia of Donetz stop their obligatory relief work for the Volga district and begin to take care with all their forces of their own famine problem, at a time when already more than every tenth person in the Donetz was without bread. In the beginning of March this year, you could still see, in the famine-stricken goubernia Nicolaev (Mykolaiv), placards with 'Working masses of Nikolaev (sic), to the help of the starving Volga district!' The goubernia of Nicolaev itself had at the same time 700,000 starving people, about half the population. On my way to Ukrania I sought information in Moscow about the situation from presumably well informed persons. They told me that in Ukrania the situation was very bad, about half a million people starving. In reality the number was more than six times greater." Further on, the envoy continues: "The whole of the 4 goubernias of Odessa, Nicolaev, Yekaterinioslav (Katerynoslav), and Donetz, as well as the southern parts of Krementchoug, Poltava and Kharkov, are stricken by famine. Of a total population of about 16 million in these goubernias, between four and five millions are now starving, and before the new harvest the number will perhaps have risen to between six and seven millions. Almost the whole population of Ukrania is suffering to a certain extent from lack of food and all the conveniences of life, but the above mentioned millions are literally starving to death." (p.2) In a follow-up report, dated 13 April, 1922, and reproduced in the same document, we read: "Five million persons are now without food and probably more than ten thousand die daily of starvation... In a word, the famine has reached such dimensions and such insignificant relief is given, that the starving population loses every hope and dies." (p.30) What Nansen's man was describing was the first man-made famine in Ukraine which lasted from 1921 to 1923 (and not 1922) and took 1.5 to 2 million lives. In spite of the drought in its southern provinces, Ukraine had enough grain to feed its population, provided the foodstuffs were kept in the country and not exported. But during these two years Soviet authorities removed enough agricultural produce from Ukraine to feed several times the population which died from hunger. Ukrainian grain was sent to Russia both years to feed the cities and the famished population on the Volga. (A severe famine was also ravaging southern Russia, especially the Volga region.) The second year it was also sold in Western Europe. Aid offered by foreign countries was accepted immediately for the Volga region but let into Ukraine only eight months later. Since both famines in Ukraine were manmade, it was quite legitimate to use in the film Harvest of Despair photographs from the famine of the 1920's along with those of the 1930's. The weakness of the film lies not in these photographs but in the insufficient explanation the film gave of the first famine. This shortcoming has no bearing on the authenticity of the famine-genocide of the 1930's. To suggest the opposite, as Tottle, Coplon, Flannagan and Szczesny do, is to display ignorance or lack of intellectual integrity. Second, let us see how even the great Ukrainian historian Mykhailo Hrushevsky is made to serve the famine-genocide deniers' propaganda machine. Szczesny writes: "Tottle cites a number of historians and other writers whose works contradict the claim that the famine was a deliberate act of genocide, including Isaac Mazepa amd M. Hrushevsky, both of whom discuss the causes of the famine with no suggestion that it was a deliberate effort to destroy the Ukrainian people." Taken at face value, Szczesny's contention sounds serious. If Ukraine's foremost historian could analyze the famine and find no deliberate action against the Ukrainian people, then surely his findings carry more weight than the claims of lesser scholars. And yet to anyone the least familiar with contemporary Ukrainian it sounds incredible that Hrushevsky should have written such things about the famine. What are the facts? In 1941, Yale University Press published a translation of Michael Hrushevsky's History of Ukraine. As the Ukrainian text stopped in 1905, the editor, Professor O.J. Frederiksen of Miami University (Ohio), decided to update it. Two chapters were added. One, entitled "Ukrainian Independence", covered the period 1914-1918 and was based on Hrushevsky's other writings. The second chapter, "Recent Ukraine", brought the events up to 1940; it was written by the editor from notes provided by Dr. Luke Myshuha and had nothing to do with Hrushevsky. In the Frederiksen/Myshuha chapter references to the 1932-33 famine are very skimpy, but there are two passages (p.566) that have some bearing on the subject. Skrypnyk, the Commissar of Education in Soviet Ukraine, is reported as having "committed suicide in 1933 in protest against Soviet policies there, and in particular against the export of foodstuffs". It is also claimed that after a year of drought and chaotic agricultural conditions, "during the winter of 1932-33 a great famine, like that of 1921-22, swept across Soviet Ukraine, again costing the lives of several million men, women and children." (My emphasis - R.S.) In the next paragraph the reader learns that "Hrushevsky was arrested in 1930 and transferred from Kiev to a town near Moscow; he died on November 26, 1934, at Kislovodsk, in the northern Caucasus." Now let us see how Tottle reconstructs these references: "However, A History of Ukraine by Mikhail (sic) Hrushevsky - described by the Nationalists themselves as 'Ukraine's leading historian' - states: 'Again a year of drought coincided with chaotic agricultural conditions; and during the winter of 1932-33 a great famine, like that of 1921-1922, swept across Soviet Ukraine...' Indeed, nowhere does History of Ukraine claim a deliberate, man-made famine against Ukrainians and more space is actually devoted to the famine of 1921-22." (p.91) Tottle then adds laconically that Hrushevsky's was published posthumously in 1941 and that it was updated to 1940 based on notes by Dr. Luke Myshuha. Tottle does not deem it necessary to mention the work of Professor Frederiksen, or to specify when and where Hrushevsky died, although these facts are essential to appreciate the reference to the famine. He does, however, go out of his way to point out that Myshuha was "editor-in-chief of Svoboda", and that he had "visited Berlin in 1939, speaking over Nazi radio in Ukrainian," (p. 92) information quite irrelevant to the analysis of the famine, but necessary to make the perfidious famine-Nazi link which I shall discuss further on. Here again we have a mixture of irrelevant truths, misleading half-truths, and lies. The comments by Myshuha/Frederiksen on the famine are deformed (damaging reference to Skrypnyk's suicide to protest the export of grain while several million starved is left out), and even though Tottle does not actually attribute them to Hrushevsky, he words his statement in such a way as to create that impression. Whether Szczesny was privy to Tottle's ruse or was duped by the insinuation, the result is the same; a lie about Hrushevsky's alleged denial of the famine-genocide. Third, a few words are in order on the subliminal Nazification of the Ukrainian famine-genocide. If there is one common denominator to all the famine-genocide denial literature, it is the effort to tie the Ukrainian famine to the Nazis and sandwich between them that part of the Ukrainian diaspora which defends the right of the Ukrainian nation to exist as a sovereign state. Genocide deniers would be happiest if they could blame the famine on the Nazis and the "Ukrainian collaborators" as Stalin pinned Katyn on the Germans. But since this can not be done, they try the next best thing: link with Nazis those who speak out about the famine (including famine survivors and descendants of famine victims). On the cover of Tottle's book one can see a photograph of a woman with an undernourished child, and looming over the photograph a hand with a paintbrush. The brush is about to be dipped into oilpaint profusely pouring out of a tube marked with a swastika. What a disgusting spectacle, and yet how descriptive of the author and the book! Isn't Tottle getting ready to apply Nazi colours to the famine victims? When one checks the book's table of contents one notices that only one chapter is classified as "famine", the other nine deal with "fraud" and "Fascism". In fact, at least ten times as much space is devoted to the task of making the famine-Fascism connection as is given to the study of the famine. Unabashed, the author admits that he "does not attempt to study the famine in any detailed way". (p.1) He is more interested in the "Nazi and fascist connections" and the "coverups of wartime collaboration" (p.3). Both topics, even if they had been objectively treated, are completely irrelevant to the study of the famine and can neither prove nor disprove the existence of the famine or define the nature of the tragedy. (Many of Tottle's attacks on the various segments of the Ukrainian diaspora constitute hate literature and should be dealt with in our courts of law.) The attempt to hush up serious examination and legitimate condemnation of the famine-genocide, or to dismiss it as Nazi-related propaganda, makes the writings of Tottle and the other famine-genocide deniers particularly repugnant. They have the impudence to desecrate the memory of millions of innocent people deliberately starved to death by criminals who have never even been punished for their diabolical act. Perhaps it was people like the famine-genocide deniers that Oleksandr Dovzhenko had in mind when he made this entry in his diary written on the German front on May 4, 1942: "If all the heroism of the sons of Ukraine in the Fatherland war, all the sacrifices and suffering of (its) people, and all (their) victorious energy after the war, cunning hands and pens of certain clever fellows throw into a common...pot, and on account of Ukrainians, these same hands thrust artificially created Hitlerite Petliurivshchyna and anti-Semitism with all the consequences of slaughter-houses, it would be better for me to die and no longer witness human baseness, bottomless hate, and fathomless eternal lies which entangle us. (Dnipro, 1988, No.10, p.89) In his review of Tottle's book Szczesny writes: "The theory of the big lie is that the bigger the lie and the more often it is repeated, the more it will be believed." (p.22) Szczesny should have added that in order to render their own lie more credible, the hoaxsters accuse their opponents of the deception they themselves practice, while presenting their own fabrication as a corrective to their opponents' alleged lie. Need we be reminded that the real hoax is not the Holocaust but what Butz has to say about it and the great fraud is not the famine-genocide but Tottle's treatment of it? Documents on the famine published recently in the West (M. Carynnyk, et al, The Foreign Office and the Famine, Kingston, Ont., 1988, and others), and in the Soviet press (isn't it about time that the 'UC' reprinted some of them?) leave no room for doubt that the famine in Ukraine was man-made. As Yuri Shcherbak, the author of a novel on Chornobyl states, "the famine of 1932-33 was in no way a natural disaster. There was no drought, no hurricane as its origin... The Ukrainian harvest of 1932 while not a record one was totally adequate. Yet there was an unusual famine. From the beginning to the end it was organized from the top.... Peasants, packed on train rooftops, tried to flee the famished regions. But on the border between Russia and Ukraine... units of border guards were stationed..." (Sobesednik, Moscow, 1988, No.49) Is it legitimate to call this famine genocide? Ten years ago few people outside the Ukrainian diaspora would have ventured such an opinion: in the West because of what was thought to be a lack of reliable evidence (diplomatic archives were closed and testimony from "refugees" was viewed with suspicion), and in the Soviet Union because the very subject was taboo. All this has radically changed in the last few years. Taking advantage of glasnost, Ukrainians began to speak openly about the crime of the "33rd", calling it "man-made famine", "artificial famine", "extermination by starvation (holodomor). Although they use the more familiar traditional expressions, in their minds these terms are synonymous with genocide". What else is the deliberate starvation of millions of people, if not genocide? Occasionally, one even comes across the words "holocaust" and "genocide" as when Wasyl Pakharenko answered those who do not recognize the specificity of the Ukrainian famine. "The uniqueness of our (Ukrainian) tragedy lies in this that in Ukraine, the social-class genocide coincided with the cultural-national (genocide)." (Molod' Cherkashchyny, Cherkassy, 1988, No.30) The notion that the famine was genocide is also gaining acceptance in the West. Michael R. Marrus, professor of at the University of Toronto, and the author of The Holocaust in History, in his forward to The Foreign Office and the Famine (cited above), comes to the conclusion that the evidence presented by the British documents suggests that there was a genocidal attack upon Ukrainians. Leo Kuper, professor emeritus at the UCLA and author of Genocide, a pioneer work on the subject, writes in his latest work The Prevention of Genocide about the "many millions who died in the Soviet manmade (sic) famine of 1932-33". Kuper accepts the argument that "this artificially induced famine was in fact an act of genocide, designed...to undermine the social basis of a Ukrainian national renaissance." (p.50) In the light of all the evidence we now possess on the famine, how bleak and ignoble appear the statements of genocide deniers of the Stalin era (unscrupulous journalists like Walter Duranty of the New York Times, credulous and dishonest intellectuals like the British writer Bernard Shaw, the French politician Edouard Herriot). It took fifty years to debunk their big lie; how long will it take the defenders of truth to dispose of the big lie promoted by Tottle and his supporters? The challenge is before the Ukrainian community. Will The Ukrainian Canadian, for one, have the courage to take it up and make the last stand of the famine-genocide deniers a short one? Roman Serbyn is a professor of at the University of Quebec at Montreal.

	08-05-2003 13:16									#122
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That old hack has no access to the Soviet Archives.

Also, According to a 1978 article in The Guardian of
London, Robert Conquest got his big break shortly
after World War II, when he joined the Information
Research Department of the British Foreign Office.
Staffed heavily by émigrés, the IRD's mission was a
covert "propaganda counter-offensive" against the
Soviet Union. It was heady, hands-on work for a young
writer, a chance to slant media coverage of Russia by
adding political "spin" to Eastern bloc press releases
and funneling them to top reporters. The journalists
knew little about the IRD, beyond the names of their
mysterious contacts. The public knew nothing at all,
even as their opinions were being sculpted.
After Conquest left the IRD in 1956, the agency
suggested that he package some of his handiwork into a
book. That first compilation was distributed in the US
by Fred Praeger, who had previously published several
books at the request of the CIA.

Also, here is J Arch Getty's(who does have access) and others criticism of Conquest:

"The basic works on the Great Purges are uniformly
based on Memoir sources: CONQUEST, MEDVEDEV,
SOLZHINITSYN all rely almost exclusively on personal
accounts...Such documentation is methodologically
unacceptable in other field of history."



Back to page 211


.....this tendency is understandable but not
defensible.



Getty then proceeds to take apart the evidence used by
Conquest et al:



Orlov: "by his own admission he knew little about what
was happening in the Kremlin....even a defender would
admit that his credibility is impeachable....the
question of political bias only compounds the main
problem with Orlav--the lack of proximity to events."


Barmine: "not even HIS sources are primary.
Considerable differences between various editions of
his "memoirs" also raise doubts about the source of
his speculations."



Kravchenko: "Even more than the others, Kravchenko was
nowhere near the center of decision making."



Various prison camp memoirs and emigree scholarship:
"Their guesses and observations about political
decision-making are interesting but can hardly be
taken as primary source material."


Soljy: "the work is of limited value to the serious
student of the 1930's for it provides no important new
information or original analytical framework...his
book is thus the most brilliant example of a genre
based on rumor, heresay, and personal impression."


p. 219



Concluding: "One need only scan the footnotes of any
standard account of the Great Purges to see how much
of the basic material of this view comes from the
speculations of these contradictory and self-serving
sources, who were in no position to report anything
but gossip. Most western accounts were written during
the post ww2 period, and their authors relied on
emigre and and defector accounts for the vital
underpinnings of their view."


p.220 (I used the book so you could look it up
yourself without trying too hard...)

Source: J Arch Getty, Roberta Manning, "Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives"


Leading scholars on this era are also not impressed.
They challenge Conquest's contention that Ukrainian
priests and intelligentsia -- two major
counterrevolutionary camps -- were repressed more
ruthlessly than anywhere else in the country. They
point out that the 1932-33 famine was hardly confined
to the Ukraine, that it reached deep into the Black
Earth region of central Russia. They note that Stalin
had far less control over collectivization than is
widely assumed, and that radical district leaders made
their own rules as they went along.
Most vehemently of all, these experts reject
Conquest's hunt for a new holocaust. The famine was a
terrible thing, they agree, but it decidedly was not
genocide.
"There is no evidence it was intentionally directed
against Ukrainians," said Alexander Dallin of
Stanford, the father of modern Sovietology. "That
would be totally out of keeping with what we know --
it makes no sense."
"This is crap, rubbish," said Moshe Lewin of the
University of Pennsylvania, whose Russian Peasants and
Soviet Power broke new ground in social history. "I am
an anti- Stalinist, but I don't see how this
[genocide] campaign adds to our knowledge. It's adding
horrors, adding horrors, until it becomes a
pathology."
"I absolutely reject it," said Lynne Viola of SUNY-
Binghamton, the first US historian to examine Moscow's
Central State Archive on collectivization. "Why in
god's name would this paranoid government consciously
produce a famine when they were terrified of war [with
Germany]?"
These premier Sovietologists dismiss Conquest for what
he is -- an ideologue whose serious work is long
behind him. But Dallin stands as a liberal exception
to the hard-liners of his generation, while Lewin and
Viola remain Young Turks who happen to be doing the
freshest work on this period. In Soviet studies, where
rigor and objectivity count for less than the party
line, where fierce anti-Communists still control the
prestigious institutes and first-rank departments, a
Conquest can survive and prosper while barely cracking
a book. "He's terrible at doing research," said
veteran Sovietologist Roberta Manning of Boston
College." He misuses sources, he twists everything."

	08-05-2003 13:18									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Propaganda My ****ing god, you'll do anything to twist any words around to curry your own beliefs. You don't read anything, you just come and piss all over everything. And obviously, you know **** about collectivization and/or Stalin, so you start ****ing rumors. I say, all of you, piss off. I'm surprised I have been generous as to not ask for sources of all your information. You people just come here and post bullshit, yet not one source confirming or agreeing with what you said was posted.

This would be funny, if it were not so pathetic.

Others post bullshit, what do you do, oh comrade chihuahua?

	08-05-2003 13:21									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Propaganda That old hack has no access to the Soviet Archives.

Soviet Archives, you say?

quote: Addendum to the minutes of Politburo [meeting] No. 93. RESOLUTION OF THE COUNCIL OF PEOPLE'S COMMISSARS OF THE UKRAINIAN SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLIC AND OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY (BOLSHEVIK) OF UKRAINE ON BLACKLISTING VILLAGES THAT MALICIOUSLY SABOTAGE THE COLLECTION OF GRAIN. In view of the shameful collapse of grain collection in the more remote regions of Ukraine, the Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee call upon the oblast executive committees and the oblast [party] committees as well as the raion executive committees and the raion [party] committees: to break up the sabotage of grain collection, which has been organized by kulak and counterrevolutionary elements; to liquidate the resistance of some of the rural communists, who in fact have become the leaders of the sabotage; to eliminate the passivity and complacency toward the saboteurs, incompatible with being a party member; and to ensure, with maximum speed, full and absolute compliance with the plan for grain collection. The Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee resolve: To place the following villages on the black list for overt disruption of the grain collection plan and for malicious sabotage, organized by kulak and counterrevolutionary elements: 1. village of Verbka in Pavlograd raion, Dnepropetrovsk oblast. ... 5. village of Sviatotroitskoe in Troitsk raion, Odessa oblast. 6. village of Peski in Bashtan raion, Odessa oblast. The following measures should be undertaken with respect to these villages : 1. Immediate cessation of delivery of goods, complete suspension of cooperative and state trade in the villages, and removal of all available goods from cooperative and state stores. 2. Full prohibition of collective farm trade for both collective farms and collective farmers, and for private farmers. 3. Cessation of any sort of credit and demand for early repayment of credit and other financial obligations. 4. Investigation and purge of all sorts of foreign and hostile elements from cooperative and state institutions, to be carried out by organs of the Workers and Peasants Inspectorate. 5. Investigation and purge of collective farms in these villages, with removal of counterrevolutionary elements and organizers of grain collection disruption. The Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee call upon all collective and private farmers who are honest and dedicated to Soviet rule to organize all their efforts for a merciless struggle against kulaks and their accomplices in order to: defeat in their villages the kulak sabotage of grain collection; fulfill honestly and conscientiously their grain collection obligations to the Soviet authorities; and strengthen collective farms. CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNCIL OF PEOPLE'S COMMISSARS OF THE UKRAINIAN SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLIC - V. CHUBAR'. SECRETARY OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY (BOLSHEVIK) OF UKRAINE - S. KOSIOR. 6 December 1932. True copy

	08-05-2003 13:24									#125
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Anyway you still have yet to deal with the discrepencies between the results of the famine in 1892 and the one in 1932-33.

	08-05-2003 13:25									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: THE LAST STAND OF THE UKRAINIAN FAMINE-GENOCIDE DENIERS By ROMAN SERBYN Concluding his review of Douglas Tottle's book Fraud, Famine and Fascism, Wilfred Szczesny writes: "Members of the general public who want to know about the famine, its extent and causes, and about the motives and techniques of those who would make this tragedy into something other than what it was will find Tottle's work invaluable." (The Ukrainian Canadian, April, 1988, p.24) In the era of glasnost, Szczesny could have rendered his readers no greater disservice. For an editor-in-chief of a Ukrainian magazine to invite people to consult Tottle's tract is as appropriate as for a publisher of a Jewish periodical to recommend The Hoax of the Twentieth Century by the Holocaust denier A.R. Butz. lf in Szczesny's statement quoted above the reader substitutes "Holocaust" for "famine" and "Butz" for "Tottle", the affront to the reader's dignity in both cases will become apparent. Tottle is no more interested in discovering the truth about the forced starvation of Ukrainians than Butz about the gassing of Jews. Tottle is a self-confessed famine-genocide denier. No longer able to negate the famine as such, Tottle questions its genocidal character. Traditional famine-denial has been updated to famine-genocide denial, but the essence of the ideological trappings is the same. Today's famine-genocide deniers are the spiritual heirs of the first famine negators, Stalin and those who helped him carry out the most heinous of crimes against the Ukrainian nation or to deny its existence. With his book Douglas Tottle has become a sort of guru to a strange collection of latterday famine-genocide deniers. He has inspired militant articles by Jeff Coplon ("In Search of a Soviet Holocaust", Village Voice, 12 January, 1988); Wilfred Szczesny ("Fraud, Famine and Fascism", The Ukrainian Canadian, April, 1988); and Donne Flanagan ("The Ukrainian Famine: Fact or Fiction", McGill Daily, 22 November, 1988). How vile and trite is the campaign of the famine-genocide deniers should become clear from the following three examples of how Tottle practices the misdeeds of which he accuses others. First, let us consider the photographs of the famine. Tottle latches on to them as if they were the main proof of the historicity of the tragedy and the principle argument for its classification as genocide. Tottle does this because he thinks that the photographs form a weak link in the famine-genocide story: break this link and the whole structure will collapse. Well, this is not so. The famine has a solid documentary basis (documents published in the West and in the Soviet Union) of which the photographs form a very minor (and I might add, dispensable) component. There are few photographs from the 1932-33 famine and we could hardly expect otherwise, since the totalitarian regime wanted to keep the famine hidden and took the necessary measures to ensure this. Many more photographs have come down to us from the earlier Soviet famine of 1921-23. Some of these pictures were eventually used in connection with the second famine and this fact provided Tottle with his basic argument against the famine-genocide: photographs depicting a natural famine of 1921-22 in Russia are used as proof of man-made starvation in Ukraine in 1932-33. To make his accusation stick, Tottle resorts to a mixture of irrelevant truths, half-truths and outright lies. Tottle constantly refers to the Russian famine of 1921-22, but never mentions the contemporaneous famine in Ukraine. Yet most of Tottle's "illustrative" material is taken from Ukraine and not Russia. On page 32, Tottle reproduces three title pages of what he describes as "publications devoted to the Russian famine of 1921-22", even though two of them deal only with Ukraine. One is Holod na Ukraini, an excellent documentary by Ivan Herasymovych based on personal observations and containing excerpts from the Soviet Ukrainian press and a number of photographs. Tottle identifies the second text (the reduced reproduction is almost illegible to the naked eye) as "Dr. Fridjof Nansen's International Committee for Russian Relief, Information No.22, Geneva, April 30, 1922", but fails to give the title of the report contained on that page. It reads: "Famine Situation in Ukrania". With the help of a magnifying glass the reader can decipher the following revealing information about the famine conditions in Ukraine, sent by Nansen's representative from Kharkiv on 22 March, 1922: "(N)ot before the 11th of January of this year could the goubernia of Donetz stop their obligatory relief work for the Volga district and begin to take care with all their forces of their own famine problem, at a time when already more than every tenth person in the Donetz was without bread. In the beginning of March this year, you could still see, in the famine-stricken goubernia Nicolaev (Mykolaiv), placards with 'Working masses of Nikolaev (sic), to the help of the starving Volga district!' The goubernia of Nicolaev itself had at the same time 700,000 starving people, about half the population. On my way to Ukrania I sought information in Moscow about the situation from presumably well informed persons. They told me that in Ukrania the situation was very bad, about half a million people starving. In reality the number was more than six times greater." Further on, the envoy continues: "The whole of the 4 goubernias of Odessa, Nicolaev, Yekaterinioslav (Katerynoslav), and Donetz, as well as the southern parts of Krementchoug, Poltava and Kharkov, are stricken by famine. Of a total population of about 16 million in these goubernias, between four and five millions are now starving, and before the new harvest the number will perhaps have risen to between six and seven millions. Almost the whole population of Ukrania is suffering to a certain extent from lack of food and all the conveniences of life, but the above mentioned millions are literally starving to death." (p.2) In a follow-up report, dated 13 April, 1922, and reproduced in the same document, we read: "Five million persons are now without food and probably more than ten thousand die daily of starvation... In a word, the famine has reached such dimensions and such insignificant relief is given, that the starving population loses every hope and dies." (p.30) What Nansen's man was describing was the first man-made famine in Ukraine which lasted from 1921 to 1923 (and not 1922) and took 1.5 to 2 million lives. In spite of the drought in its southern provinces, Ukraine had enough grain to feed its population, provided the foodstuffs were kept in the country and not exported. But during these two years Soviet authorities removed enough agricultural produce from Ukraine to feed several times the population which died from hunger. Ukrainian grain was sent to Russia both years to feed the cities and the famished population on the Volga. (A severe famine was also ravaging southern Russia, especially the Volga region.) The second year it was also sold in Western Europe. Aid offered by foreign countries was accepted immediately for the Volga region but let into Ukraine only eight months later. Since both famines in Ukraine were manmade, it was quite legitimate to use in the film Harvest of Despair photographs from the famine of the 1920's along with those of the 1930's. The weakness of the film lies not in these photographs but in the insufficient explanation the film gave of the first famine. This shortcoming has no bearing on the authenticity of the famine-genocide of the 1930's. To suggest the opposite, as Tottle, Coplon, Flannagan and Szczesny do, is to display ignorance or lack of intellectual integrity. Second, let us see how even the great Ukrainian historian Mykhailo Hrushevsky is made to serve the famine-genocide deniers' propaganda machine. Szczesny writes: "Tottle cites a number of historians and other writers whose works contradict the claim that the famine was a deliberate act of genocide, including Isaac Mazepa amd M. Hrushevsky, both of whom discuss the causes of the famine with no suggestion that it was a deliberate effort to destroy the Ukrainian people." Taken at face value, Szczesny's contention sounds serious. If Ukraine's foremost historian could analyze the famine and find no deliberate action against the Ukrainian people, then surely his findings carry more weight than the claims of lesser scholars. And yet to anyone the least familiar with contemporary Ukrainian it sounds incredible that Hrushevsky should have written such things about the famine. What are the facts? In 1941, Yale University Press published a translation of Michael Hrushevsky's History of Ukraine. As the Ukrainian text stopped in 1905, the editor, Professor O.J. Frederiksen of Miami University (Ohio), decided to update it. Two chapters were added. One, entitled "Ukrainian Independence", covered the period 1914-1918 and was based on Hrushevsky's other writings. The second chapter, "Recent Ukraine", brought the events up to 1940; it was written by the editor from notes provided by Dr. Luke Myshuha and had nothing to do with Hrushevsky. In the Frederiksen/Myshuha chapter references to the 1932-33 famine are very skimpy, but there are two passages (p.566) that have some bearing on the subject. Skrypnyk, the Commissar of Education in Soviet Ukraine, is reported as having "committed suicide in 1933 in protest against Soviet policies there, and in particular against the export of foodstuffs". It is also claimed that after a year of drought and chaotic agricultural conditions, "during the winter of 1932-33 a great famine, like that of 1921-22, swept across Soviet Ukraine, again costing the lives of several million men, women and children." (My emphasis - R.S.) In the next paragraph the reader learns that "Hrushevsky was arrested in 1930 and transferred from Kiev to a town near Moscow; he died on November 26, 1934, at Kislovodsk, in the northern Caucasus." Now let us see how Tottle reconstructs these references: "However, A History of Ukraine by Mikhail (sic) Hrushevsky - described by the Nationalists themselves as 'Ukraine's leading historian' - states: 'Again a year of drought coincided with chaotic agricultural conditions; and during the winter of 1932-33 a great famine, like that of 1921-1922, swept across Soviet Ukraine...' Indeed, nowhere does History of Ukraine claim a deliberate, man-made famine against Ukrainians and more space is actually devoted to the famine of 1921-22." (p.91) Tottle then adds laconically that Hrushevsky's was published posthumously in 1941 and that it was updated to 1940 based on notes by Dr. Luke Myshuha. Tottle does not deem it necessary to mention the work of Professor Frederiksen, or to specify when and where Hrushevsky died, although these facts are essential to appreciate the reference to the famine. He does, however, go out of his way to point out that Myshuha was "editor-in-chief of Svoboda", and that he had "visited Berlin in 1939, speaking over Nazi radio in Ukrainian," (p. 92) information quite irrelevant to the analysis of the famine, but necessary to make the perfidious famine-Nazi link which I shall discuss further on. Here again we have a mixture of irrelevant truths, misleading half-truths, and lies. The comments by Myshuha/Frederiksen on the famine are deformed (damaging reference to Skrypnyk's suicide to protest the export of grain while several million starved is left out), and even though Tottle does not actually attribute them to Hrushevsky, he words his statement in such a way as to create that impression. Whether Szczesny was privy to Tottle's ruse or was duped by the insinuation, the result is the same; a lie about Hrushevsky's alleged denial of the famine-genocide. Third, a few words are in order on the subliminal Nazification of the Ukrainian famine-genocide. If there is one common denominator to all the famine-genocide denial literature, it is the effort to tie the Ukrainian famine to the Nazis and sandwich between them that part of the Ukrainian diaspora which defends the right of the Ukrainian nation to exist as a sovereign state. Genocide deniers would be happiest if they could blame the famine on the Nazis and the "Ukrainian collaborators" as Stalin pinned Katyn on the Germans. But since this can not be done, they try the next best thing: link with Nazis those who speak out about the famine (including famine survivors and descendants of famine victims). On the cover of Tottle's book one can see a photograph of a woman with an undernourished child, and looming over the photograph a hand with a paintbrush. The brush is about to be dipped into oilpaint profusely pouring out of a tube marked with a swastika. What a disgusting spectacle, and yet how descriptive of the author and the book! Isn't Tottle getting ready to apply Nazi colours to the famine victims? When one checks the book's table of contents one notices that only one chapter is classified as "famine", the other nine deal with "fraud" and "Fascism". In fact, at least ten times as much space is devoted to the task of making the famine-Fascism connection as is given to the study of the famine. Unabashed, the author admits that he "does not attempt to study the famine in any detailed way". (p.1) He is more interested in the "Nazi and fascist connections" and the "coverups of wartime collaboration" (p.3). Both topics, even if they had been objectively treated, are completely irrelevant to the study of the famine and can neither prove nor disprove the existence of the famine or define the nature of the tragedy. (Many of Tottle's attacks on the various segments of the Ukrainian diaspora constitute hate literature and should be dealt with in our courts of law.) The attempt to hush up serious examination and legitimate condemnation of the famine-genocide, or to dismiss it as Nazi-related propaganda, makes the writings of Tottle and the other famine-genocide deniers particularly repugnant. They have the impudence to desecrate the memory of millions of innocent people deliberately starved to death by criminals who have never even been punished for their diabolical act. Perhaps it was people like the famine-genocide deniers that Oleksandr Dovzhenko had in mind when he made this entry in his diary written on the German front on May 4, 1942: "If all the heroism of the sons of Ukraine in the Fatherland war, all the sacrifices and suffering of (its) people, and all (their) victorious energy after the war, cunning hands and pens of certain clever fellows throw into a common...pot, and on account of Ukrainians, these same hands thrust artificially created Hitlerite Petliurivshchyna and anti-Semitism with all the consequences of slaughter-houses, it would be better for me to die and no longer witness human baseness, bottomless hate, and fathomless eternal lies which entangle us. (Dnipro, 1988, No.10, p.89) In his review of Tottle's book Szczesny writes: "The theory of the big lie is that the bigger the lie and the more often it is repeated, the more it will be believed." (p.22) Szczesny should have added that in order to render their own lie more credible, the hoaxsters accuse their opponents of the deception they themselves practice, while presenting their own fabrication as a corrective to their opponents' alleged lie. Need we be reminded that the real hoax is not the Holocaust but what Butz has to say about it and the great fraud is not the famine-genocide but Tottle's treatment of it? Documents on the famine published recently in the West (M. Carynnyk, et al, The Foreign Office and the Famine, Kingston, Ont., 1988, and others), and in the Soviet press (isn't it about time that the 'UC' reprinted some of them?) leave no room for doubt that the famine in Ukraine was man-made. As Yuri Shcherbak, the author of a novel on Chornobyl states, "the famine of 1932-33 was in no way a natural disaster. There was no drought, no hurricane as its origin... The Ukrainian harvest of 1932 while not a record one was totally adequate. Yet there was an unusual famine. From the beginning to the end it was organized from the top.... Peasants, packed on train rooftops, tried to flee the famished regions. But on the border between Russia and Ukraine... units of border guards were stationed..." (Sobesednik, Moscow, 1988, No.49) Is it legitimate to call this famine genocide? Ten years ago few people outside the Ukrainian diaspora would have ventured such an opinion: in the West because of what was thought to be a lack of reliable evidence (diplomatic archives were closed and testimony from "refugees" was viewed with suspicion), and in the Soviet Union because the very subject was taboo. All this has radically changed in the last few years. Taking advantage of glasnost, Ukrainians began to speak openly about the crime of the "33rd", calling it "man-made famine", "artificial famine", "extermination by starvation (holodomor). Although they use the more familiar traditional expressions, in their minds these terms are synonymous with genocide". What else is the deliberate starvation of millions of people, if not genocide? Occasionally, one even comes across the words "holocaust" and "genocide" as when Wasyl Pakharenko answered those who do not recognize the specificity of the Ukrainian famine. "The uniqueness of our (Ukrainian) tragedy lies in this that in Ukraine, the social-class genocide coincided with the cultural-national (genocide)." (Molod' Cherkashchyny, Cherkassy, 1988, No.30) The notion that the famine was genocide is also gaining acceptance in the West. Michael R. Marrus, professor of at the University of Toronto, and the author of The Holocaust in History, in his forward to The Foreign Office and the Famine (cited above), comes to the conclusion that the evidence presented by the British documents suggests that there was a genocidal attack upon Ukrainians. Leo Kuper, professor emeritus at the UCLA and author of Genocide, a pioneer work on the subject, writes in his latest work The Prevention of Genocide about the "many millions who died in the Soviet manmade (sic) famine of 1932-33". Kuper accepts the argument that "this artificially induced famine was in fact an act of genocide, designed...to undermine the social basis of a Ukrainian national renaissance." (p.50) In the light of all the evidence we now possess on the famine, how bleak and ignoble appear the statements of genocide deniers of the Stalin era (unscrupulous journalists like Walter Duranty of the New York Times, credulous and dishonest intellectuals like the British writer Bernard Shaw, the French politician Edouard Herriot). It took fifty years to debunk their big lie; how long will it take the defenders of truth to dispose of the big lie promoted by Tottle and his supporters? The challenge is before the Ukrainian community. Will The Ukrainian Canadian, for one, have the courage to take it up and make the last stand of the famine-genocide deniers a short one? Roman Serbyn is a professor of at the University of Quebec at Montreal.

Care to tell me when that article was written? BTW, his sources are old and have been disproven by the likes of Tauger. Also, Tottle has changed his stand a bit, though he didn't deny the famine happened in the first place. Plus, he wrote it in the 80s, which didn't have much archival info available(like there is now), just different source material(meaning other emigres, visitor memoirs, etc.)

	08-05-2003 13:26									#127
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How about all the survivors who escaped to the West as a consequence of the war?

How do you refute them?

	08-05-2003 13:37									#128
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Soviet Archives, you say? quote: Addendum to the minutes of Politburo [meeting] No. 93. RESOLUTION OF THE COUNCIL OF PEOPLE'S COMMISSARS OF THE UKRAINIAN SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLIC AND OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY (BOLSHEVIK) OF UKRAINE ON BLACKLISTING VILLAGES THAT MALICIOUSLY SABOTAGE THE COLLECTION OF GRAIN. In view of the shameful collapse of grain collection in the more remote regions of Ukraine, the Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee call upon the oblast executive committees and the oblast [party] committees as well as the raion executive committees and the raion [party] committees: to break up the sabotage of grain collection, which has been organized by kulak and counterrevolutionary elements; to liquidate the resistance of some of the rural communists, who in fact have become the leaders of the sabotage; to eliminate the passivity and complacency toward the saboteurs, incompatible with being a party member; and to ensure, with maximum speed, full and absolute compliance with the plan for grain collection. The Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee resolve: To place the following villages on the black list for overt disruption of the grain collection plan and for malicious sabotage, organized by kulak and counterrevolutionary elements: 1. village of Verbka in Pavlograd raion, Dnepropetrovsk oblast. ... 5. village of Sviatotroitskoe in Troitsk raion, Odessa oblast. 6. village of Peski in Bashtan raion, Odessa oblast. The following measures should be undertaken with respect to these villages : 1. Immediate cessation of delivery of goods, complete suspension of cooperative and state trade in the villages, and removal of all available goods from cooperative and state stores. 2. Full prohibition of collective farm trade for both collective farms and collective farmers, and for private farmers. 3. Cessation of any sort of credit and demand for early repayment of credit and other financial obligations. 4. Investigation and purge of all sorts of foreign and hostile elements from cooperative and state institutions, to be carried out by organs of the Workers and Peasants Inspectorate. 5. Investigation and purge of collective farms in these villages, with removal of counterrevolutionary elements and organizers of grain collection disruption. The Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee call upon all collective and private farmers who are honest and dedicated to Soviet rule to organize all their efforts for a merciless struggle against kulaks and their accomplices in order to: defeat in their villages the kulak sabotage of grain collection; fulfill honestly and conscientiously their grain collection obligations to the Soviet authorities; and strengthen collective farms. CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNCIL OF PEOPLE'S COMMISSARS OF THE UKRAINIAN SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLIC - V. CHUBAR'. SECRETARY OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY (BOLSHEVIK) OF UKRAINE - S. KOSIOR. 6 December 1932. True copy

First off, where did you get that from? Second off, that document is with respect to the CC of the Ukraine, which has autonomy from the CC and Politburo of the CCCP. Thirdly, it doesn't prove any crimes, in fact it proves that the kulaks did in fact organize a resistance, that threatened the situation to worsen.(Also, it only speaks of a few small villages, but that doesn't matter here.)

	08-05-2003 13:40									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor PolPotist Or rather, as an illuminated who was such full of hismelf and of his communitarian/rural/marxist ideology that he had completely lost touch with reality, and plunged Cambodia into hell. A good example of stalinism can be found in current North Korea. I'd say that Ceaucescu and Hokja (Albanian dictator) fit my understanding of Stalinism well too Edit Put an "s" to dictator, and you seem to be an ignorant who doesn't know Ceausescu wasn't Albanian

PolPotist = ignorant murderous peasant twit.

	08-05-2003 13:40									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Propaganda First off, where did you get that from?

You tell me. Where would one go to get the minutes of a Politburo meeting from the 30's?

	08-05-2003 13:40									#131
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither How about all the survivors who escaped to the West as a consequence of the war? How do you refute them?

Slawko
Nowitski, a producer of "Harvest of
Despair" says, of his sources, "Just
because they're collaborators does
that mean we cannot believe
anything they tell us? Just because
they're Nazis is no reason to doubt
the authenticity of what happened."

You can't possibly agree with this, can
you?

Plus, didn't I already post on Dushnyck and his falsification of photos?

	08-05-2003 13:46									#132
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Escaped does not mean collaborator, unless you regard slave labour as collaboration.

	08-05-2003 13:55									#133
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Escaped does not mean collaborator, unless you regard slave labour as collaboration.

Yeah, you mean like Stepan Skrypnyk? or Hans von Herwath?

Fact is, there are a few of them who are constantly cited as sources in books and documentaries. I have yet to see thousands of Ukrainian emigrants being cited as sources on the famine. Only the ones who worked as SS/Gestapo/Propaganda agents and fled when the Red Army liberated Ukraine and parts of Poland keep getting cited over and over.

	08-05-2003 14:22									#134
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Escaped does not mean collaborator, unless you regard slave labour as collaboration.

Uncle Joe will have done

	08-05-2003 14:30									#135
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Uncle Joe will have done

Someone from Britain has room to talk. How about those wonderful years of British enslavement in Africa, India, Middle East?

	08-05-2003 14:32									#136
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither This would be funny, if it were not so pathetic. Others post bullshit, what do you do, oh comrade chihuahua?

You haven't posted ANYTHING, comrade canuck.

So, what's that all aboot?

	08-05-2003 14:34									#137
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Anyway, I'm off. Goodnight to all.

	08-05-2003 14:37									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Propaganda Someone from Britain has room to talk. How about those wonderful years of British enslavement in Africa, India, Middle East?

What has that got to do with this thread.

The Uk did many things wrong however deliberate famine wasn't 1 of them ( the Irish famine wasn't actualy deliberate it was shockinly incomptent though)

Anyway the UK abolished slavery before Russia emancipated its peasants so **** you.

	08-05-2003 15:09									#139
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Either way, socialism interferes w/ business, and is usually paid for through high taxes. Hence, violating my rights. I don't consent to having huge social welfare programs, or public education, or single-mom assistance, or whatever. Hence, paying for this stuff with my money without my permission is coercive, and socialism is far, far worse about this than, say, laissez-faire capitalism, and certainly worse than Libertarianism.

To me that's highly disturbing, but maybe that's just me. I don't mind paying 25-40% taxes if that means things like free healthcare, education (even in Universities) and a safety net for the lesser fortunate, etc. etc. And that doesn't mean healthcare or education is crap. Take a look at the education level in the Nordic countries for example. I'm not exactly sure how socialism interferes with business (execpt that they pay taxes too and have to obey laws). All I know that the Nordic countries are among the most economically competitive countries in the world.

quote: By the way, I find it interesting you think that I think democracy is good. I don't think that at all.

Well, it's certainly better than communism or neo-nazism, right?

	08-05-2003 15:14									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Jeltz I don't mind paying 25-40% taxes if that means things like free healthcare, education

How is it free if you pay 25-40% of your income on it?

quote: And that doesn't mean healthcare or education is crap.

It had better not be if you spend that much of your yearly income on it.

	08-05-2003 15:22									#141
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Prop -

	08-05-2003 15:22									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Jeltz To me that's highly disturbing, but maybe that's just me. I don't mind paying 25-40% taxes if that means things like free healthcare, education (even in Universities) and a safety net for the lesser fortunate, etc. etc. And that doesn't mean healthcare or education is crap. Take a look at the education level in the Nordic countries for example. I'm not exactly sure how socialism interferes with business (execpt that they pay taxes too and have to obey laws). All I know that the Nordic countries are among the most economically competitive countries in the world. Well, it's certainly better than communism or neo-nazism, right?

A tip- don't argue with DF on this.

	08-05-2003 15:23									#143
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How is it free if you pay 25-40% of your income on it? quote: And that doesn't mean healthcare or education is crap. It had better not be if you spend that much of your yearly income on it.

You know what I mean. Good healthcare and high education aren't exclusive rights for the rich people.
How much do you pay taxes? And where do your tax monies go to?

	08-05-2003 15:25									#144
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger A tip- don't argue with DF on this.

Thanks for the tip.

	08-05-2003 15:28									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Jeltz Thanks for the tip.

I only say this because it will drive you mad.

	08-05-2003 15:49									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Prop -

You said it, Saras.

To think that the OT now has its very own, deeply serious Stalinist apologist/revisionist. I bet the processes, purges and deportations of millions never really happened, people just made that up.

Amazing.

	08-05-2003 15:53									#147
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And 5 percent of Lithuanias population just disappeared into thin air

	08-05-2003 15:54									#148
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Its all big lie created by the evil zionist/ facist/counter revolutionary/acapatalist/imerpialistic/add in any other group who mad russians don't like.

sounds a bit familiar.

	08-05-2003 16:00									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Saras And 5 percent of Lithuanias population just disappeared into thin air

Didn't a similar thing happen to Estonia and Latvia too when Stalin tried to russify the Baltic countries?

	08-05-2003 16:21									#150
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Yeah, but what do I care about those northern barbarians