08-05-2003 01:02									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin DD: Oh, Stalin had a reason for engineering a mass famine amoung the farmers. Namely, the farmers weren't supporting his regime so he starved them to death.

This strangely reminds me of Civ...

	08-05-2003 01:15									#62
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I was known to do this from time to time to stop culutre flips from happening.

	08-05-2003 01:18									#63
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Well, I don't remember Stalin poprushed temples and cathedrals

	08-05-2003 01:20									#64
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Stadiums, that's the ****.

	08-05-2003 01:23									#65
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT It is exactly on the same ground that the leftist were charmed by Pol Pot, until the whole world knew that he had physically liquidated millions of cambodgians.

What leftists were charmed by Pol Pot?

	08-05-2003 01:33									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Well, I don't remember Stalin poprushed temples and cathedrals

No, he pop-rushed factories and other industrial buildings.

	08-05-2003 01:49									#67
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actually, the industrial developement wasn't generally at the expense of human lives. the purges began after the beginning of the rapid economic growth.

	08-05-2003 01:57									#68
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What about the Baltic countries? The Lithuanians and Latvians definently favoured Nazi control over Soviet control...

Also people forget that Stalin killed the most loyal communist Russians... German Nazi party members were no where near as punished for being loyal!

	08-05-2003 01:59									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer What about the Baltic countries? The Lithuanians and Latvians definently favoured Nazi control over Soviet control...

Not for long, they didn't. Once the SS moved in and started the ethnic cleansing, occupied countries weren't quite so happy about it.

	08-05-2003 02:00									#70
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Except maybe the SA during the Long Knife Night.

	08-05-2003 02:02									#71
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Stalin had a slight paronoid streak in him. He had gotten into power by basically conspiring to have his co-revolutionary leaders offed one by one so he was always afraid somebody was trying to do the same to him. That meant he had several bloody purges designed to eliminate anyone else in a position to challenge him and to replace them with young (and less experienced men) who weren't a direct threat to his power.

	08-05-2003 02:03									#72
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by the way, I find the pro-Stalinism in this thread to be disturbing... what is with leftists glancing over the brutalities of communist dictators?

also of note is that recent historical evidence seems to show that the Nazis were far more racially tolerant than thought of before... A Muslim SS division (as well as Germany's close relations with the Mufti of Jerusalem) can attest to this. Always found it odd how people assume that the Nazis only wanted blue-eyed blondes to exist when they clearly were allied to Japanese! (who were declared Aryans [which also brings up the issue of if Aryanism could transcend race])


thanks

	08-05-2003 02:07									#73
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The nazis didn't only want Aryans on the planet. In the nazi ideology, there was a hierarchy between 'races', where most of them were allowed to live, obviously under the rule of the superior aryan race. A few of these races were considered diseases to humanity, i.e Jews, Gypsies and Slavs (yet I'm not sure if the total extermination of Slavs was required or not).

I remember to have read in my history books that the Germans and the Japanese weren't well coordinated notably because of race issues

	08-05-2003 02:10									#74
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With the Japanese: Germans said something about the Japanese being similar to the Germans, like the Germans of the east or something.

With the Arabs: Well, I suppose that they would use the arabs as a temporary ally. Similiarly to the way they allied with some east-european, slavic countries.

So, Albert, do you want to join the aryan league?

	08-05-2003 02:21									#75
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Spiffor:

quote: I remember to have read in my history books that the Germans and the Japanese weren't well coordinated notably because of race issues

Actually that's probably not true. lack of co-ordination was probably due to language differences (how many Germans do you think could speak Japanese) and difficulty in communications (no land contact... thousands of miles of Russia, India and China seperating the countries... and impossibility of contact through the sea [having to send ships around Africa, etc. through British Navy dominated seas]). All these problems prevented any real co-ordination... talking on the phone or through telegram (which I'm not sure could easily be done either) is not anyway to co-ordinate complicated battle plans.

Azazel:

Reading through this thread I found that a lot of people were glancing over Stalin's crimes or excusing them somehow (ie- saying they were not racially-based)... so I'm just showing that the facts could also easily show Hitler in a better light. both were equally murderous so I don't see how Stalin was any better than Hitler


thanks

	08-05-2003 02:26									#76
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Well, Stalin was different. I wouldn't call him better. But Hitler did start WWII.

	08-05-2003 02:34									#77
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you could easily say that David Lloyd George and Clemenceu and their insistance on destroying the German economy in the Versailles treaty started the second world war.

	08-05-2003 02:37									#78
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I can also say that Hitler's biological father, and mother started the war.

BUT I WON'T.

	08-05-2003 02:37									#79
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There are no Stalin apologizers. Right?

	08-05-2003 02:40									#80
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quote: You are seriously sick mister. You’re saying that ideology that says that some «inferior» nationalities/races should be completely exterminated is as bad as ideology that says that people of all nationalities have equal rights and equal opportunities? For first ideology it’s absolutely natural and OK to burn children of “inferior” nationalities alive, while it is never, not even a close OK for second ideology.

Nazism and socialism are equally bad in that both want to deny me my natural rights - specifically, my liberty and my property, and in some cases, my life.

It's hard to see how one can be worse than the other. Oh, granted, maybe socialists today don't kill people in the name of socialism (well, I'm sure the Chinese still do it), but then again, Neo-Nazis haven't made much headway wiping out an entire race, either. Not that Neo-Nazis are good, but the point is socialism is no better.

	08-05-2003 02:40									#81
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quote: you could easily say that David Lloyd George and Clemenceu and their insistance on destroying the German economy in the Versailles treaty started the second world war.

and if my car had wings it would fly... I wonder, I should ask my grandfather if David Lloyd George and Clemenceu machined gunned over 500 people in a little village outside of Kragujevic. Or better yet, let's reconvene in Nuremburg to prosecute those two for the murder of millions of all "undesirables". Oh wait, those are all fabrications right? The Nazis never hurt anyone.

	08-05-2003 02:41									#82
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quote: Nazism and socialism are equally bad in that both want to deny me my natural rights - specifically, my liberty and my property, and in some cases, my life. It's hard to see how one can be worse than the other. Oh, granted, maybe socialists today don't kill people in the name of socialism (well, I'm sure the Chinese still do it), but then again, Neo-Nazis haven't made much headway wiping out an entire race, either. Not that Neo-Nazis are good, but the point is socialism is no better.

	08-05-2003 02:41									#83
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How can one deny Rights that are natu...... OH NO, No way you're ruining another perfectly good thread, David!

	08-05-2003 02:41									#84
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Then again, David Lloyd George and Clemenceau weren't exactly the most moral of fellows either.

	08-05-2003 02:42									#85
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quote: How can one deny Rights that are natu......

One can refuse to protect them, and abrogate them through force, obviously.

	08-05-2003 02:43									#86
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And I wouldn't even Start talking about FDR, that SOCIALIST WARMONGER.

Ok, I'll stop poking fun at libertarianism. As long as I won't convince you it is wrong ethically, There is no point in doing so, and since you believe it has to do so.......... CRAP you're doing it again, using your evil voodoo powers to turn this thread into a Libertarianism thread? well, no way, Jose!

	08-05-2003 02:46									#87
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I'm doing no such thing. I'm not making this a Libertarian thread any more than the people who went from Stalinism to socialism are making this a socialist thread. I, like them, am simply posting my opinion. We don't have to talk about my opinion - unless you have some need to debate with me, because I don't really care.

	08-05-2003 02:49									#88
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That's fine. Neither do I.

	08-05-2003 03:03									#89
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We have Serb here but he really isn't an apologist for Stalin so much as a person who likes saying that Hitler was worse. That's debatable (purposefully engineering a famine in the Ukraine for no reason puts him pretty high up there) but it is a somewhat reasonable position to stake out.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin DD: Oh, Stalin had a reason for engineering a mass famine amoung the farmers. Namely, the farmers weren't supporting his regime so he starved them to death.

Actually, there was a reason aside from the hostility of the farmers to the 'system'. They took the grain from the Ukraine to buy industrial equipment.

That is what is so chilling about Stalin and many other communists who have gotten into a position to further the revolution... They often hate any who do not agree, and find it quite good to enslave or murder those with differing ideologies. Now, that's not racism and genocide, but I can't see the big difference between the extermination of a race and the extermination of a class or all those who believe differently than you. That's why I can't see a big difference between Communism and Nazism.

btw, Communists may well be socialists, but not all Socialists are communist. Think poodles and dogs.

	08-05-2003 03:42									#90
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Nazism and socialism are equally bad in that both want to deny me my natural rights - specifically, my liberty and my property, and in some cases, my life. It's hard to see how one can be worse than the other. Oh, granted, maybe socialists today don't kill people in the name of socialism (well, I'm sure the Chinese still do it), but then again, Neo-Nazis haven't made much headway wiping out an entire race, either. Not that Neo-Nazis are good, but the point is socialism is no better.

Your use of that word makes baby Jesus cry.

Short definitions I found from a website:
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Socialism and Democracy: Limited government interference in business activity, but more than in capitalism. Certain areas of an individual's life are controlled and representation tend to be parliamentary in nature. In other words, people vote for a particular party and the party elects the leaders of the country. The notable difference here is that there is MORE THAN one party.

Socialism and Communism: Severe government interference in economics, but not absolute. Centralized planning by the government, ONE PARTY rule, and stresses that there should be only one class of people. This differs from Socialism/Democracy which allows for individual differences.
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So socialism doesn't necessarily deny you your natural rights.