13-05-2003 03:44									#1
	Abolish Tuition Fees, Vote Conservative! Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: The Tories are to fight the next election on a platform that will include the abolition of university tuition fees. Conservative leader Iain Duncan Smith is set to outline the policy in a keynote speech on Tuesday. The speech will be entitled 'a fair deal for everyone' and will be central to the next Tory bid to win back power. The government's controversial tuition fee policy - which is in place in England and Wales - has been dubbed a "tax on learning" by the Tories. They say they will also get rid of the government's 50% target for university entrance. The new admissions regulator being introduced by the government, the Office for Fair Access (Offa) would also be scrapped. Education spokesman Damian Green said getting rid of tuition fees would save students and their families up to £3,000 a year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3022459.stm

	13-05-2003 03:49									#2
	Tired of ads?

it's easy to make promises when youre not in power, either way, 20 year olds should support themselves, it you want the education be an adult and pay for it

	13-05-2003 03:58									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I wonder, do you have a degree r4e? If so, perhaps you'd like to make your £10000 cheque payable to H.M. Government?

	13-05-2003 04:00									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Wow. Is there anyways that I could swap Ontario Tories for English Tories?

	13-05-2003 04:23									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* I wonder, do you have a degree r4e? If so, perhaps you'd like to make your £10000 cheque payable to H.M. Government?

I'm currently 2/3 of the way through a degree course (doing a 6 year part time degree in 4 years) with the Open University, I am also working 40 odd hours a week as a chemical process technican. Its not cheap and it's not easy, but I'm making the sacrifices. Quit bleating.

	13-05-2003 04:30									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well some of us dont want to make those sacrifices. Im glad the state of california is going to pay for my education. (minus housing, books, and food.) That way I can concentrate on the important things like partying, playing sports, playing guitar, and socialising.

	13-05-2003 04:36									#7
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Well some of us dont want to make those sacrifices. Im glad the state of california is going to pay for my education. (minus housing, books, and food.) That way I can concentrate on the important things like partying, playing sports, playing guitar, and socialising.

I can accept that, i just don't like the 'hard done to student' routine, at least youre honest

	13-05-2003 04:38									#8
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* I wonder, do you have a degree r4e? If so, perhaps you'd like to make your £10000 cheque payable to H.M. Government?

Are you so susceptible to bribery that you'd rather force other people to pay for your education?

	13-05-2003 04:42									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Free education for all!

Anyway, some good my prestigious education did me, degree and experience later and I am still flat on my face...

	13-05-2003 04:54									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Free education? Come on. Education is a service, and just like any other service - health care, checkout at the grocery store, or whatever - should cost money. In the ideal society (or at least mine), public education would not even be a phrase in common usage.

Oh, and yes, part of my tuition is paid by scholarships. I don't lose sleep over that because I'm taxed out the ying-yang in my 40 hour per week full time job as it is, and will continue to be for the forseeable future, except that it'll get worse.

	13-05-2003 04:55									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Free healthcare for all too!

You Yankie barbarian

	13-05-2003 04:56									#12
	Support Apolyton

Bah! If you want "free" healthcare, get private insurance. This way it's voluntary - and either way, it really isn't free. You either pay involuntary taxes, or join a voluntary insurance program and pay voluntary fees.

	13-05-2003 04:59									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Over here, we do things different

	13-05-2003 05:00									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yeah, and then we come and save you when the Germans come a-knockin'

	13-05-2003 05:04									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Actually we wouldn't if Floyd really had his way, would we?

	13-05-2003 05:05									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ooh, good point. But then again the US absence in WW1 would have forced a compromise peace anyway, hence no Hitler.

	13-05-2003 05:06									#17
	Suffering from ads?

"What the Germans should have done is drop cook books on yo' asses!" - Chris Rock, I think.

	13-05-2003 05:13									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by St Leo Wow. Is there anyways that I could swap Ontario Tories for English Tories?

alas, no

	13-05-2003 05:17									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: You either pay involuntary taxes, or join a voluntary insurance program and pay voluntary fees.

Taxes are voluntary. If you dont want to pay for the services of the government (tax = the price of their service) then dont buy government services aka leave the country.

	13-05-2003 05:19									#21
	Put an end to popups!

Is this the Tories' try at policy cross-dressing? If so, they might as well join the Labor Party. At least then they would be in power.

	13-05-2003 05:19									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The government is also a monopoly. Its got a monopoly on the law, and on power. Image if corporations were allowed to become monopolies

	13-05-2003 05:19									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

That's a poor argument. Assuming I wanted to do that, I could not go anywhere and be able to avoid taxes/government regulation.

In any case, why should I have to move to be free?

	13-05-2003 05:26									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Wheres the thead starter? Maybe getting an early night before getting up at the crack of noon for a 2pm lecture?

	13-05-2003 05:26									#25
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Because it seems to me the government is forcing you to pay taxes for something you dont want to have. If you want to eat, but dont want to pay for the bill, then dont go to the restaurant. If you want to live in America, but dont want to pay for it, then dont.

And yes, you could go to the Cayman islands, monaco, and a plethora of places where your income isnt taxed.

	13-05-2003 05:26									#26
	Suffering from ads?

The thing is, the richer a family is, the more likely it is you will be going to college. Hence, free tuition would in effect be a redistribution of wealth upward, as lower income families who are less likely to send their kids to college would pay taxes to a government that would pay for rich families sending their children to college. Now of course this disparity of college attendence would decrease if tuition was abolished, but a gap would still likely exist as poor would be students would find it much harder to accept to opportunity cost of not working, and lower income families often have values that don't stress education as much, and because children from higher income families tend to have higher qualifications for university. Free tuition would also mean a redistribution of wealth from childless families to families with children.

Now, if you want to argue for more financial aid to poorer families, then that is fine. But you shouldn't go asking for tuition for Bill Gates' children to be free.

	13-05-2003 05:30									#27
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Because it seems to me the government is forcing you to pay taxes for something you dont want to have. If you want to eat, but dont want to pay for the bill, then dont go to the restaurant. If you want to live in America, but dont want to pay for it, then dont.

Whoa. Going to a restaurant is a totally voluntary act involving no coercion. I'm not born in a restaurant, and the restaurant has no hold over my money until I ask for it to. I can come and go as a please, order (and pay) as much or as little as I would like, and if they piss me off, I can stay away and have my life impacted in no way at all.

quote: And yes, you could go to the Cayman islands, monaco, and a plethora of places where your income isnt taxed.

Although I would be subject to various other impositions on my freedom.

	13-05-2003 05:30									#28
	Got spare money?

Have state schools and private schools. Have state healthcare and private healthcare. Have state insurance and private insurance. Why force people into choosing only the market solution? Let them choose between what the government has to offer and what the private sector has to offer.

	13-05-2003 05:32									#29
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quote: Whoa. Going to a restaurant is a totally voluntary act involving no coercion. I'm not born in a restaurant, and the restaurant has no hold over my money until I ask for it to. I can come and go as a please, order (and pay) as much or as little as I would like, and if they piss me off, I can stay away and have my life impacted in no way at all.

And living in America is your choice also.

quote: Although I would be subject to various other impositions on my freedom.

Such as? Im sure not as many as you are subject to now.

	13-05-2003 05:32									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sure, no problem - AS LONG AS people who choose no insurance/healthcare or private insurance/healthcare aren't also forced to fund government programs.

If you want to give your money to the government and pay them for a service that they are ill-suited to provide, in comparison to the private sector, go right ahead. I'd rather not, though, and I shouldn't be forced to.