13-05-2003 19:31									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Willem OK, whatever Gramps. PS Good thing China is the up and coming superpower. At least they have their focus set on the future, and not dwelling on some so called glorious past.

Jeez, I see the humour bypass operation was a success!

	13-05-2003 19:35									#62
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You need a bigger wink.

	13-05-2003 19:39									#63
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Jeez, I see the humour bypass operation was a success!

Sorry, but I don't find comments like that terribly humourous. It's just a thin disguise for racial prejudice IMO.

	13-05-2003 19:40									#64
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To be fair I thought red4ever was actually supporting your comment aginst DF's comment.

	13-05-2003 19:43									#65
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Willem obviously missed the sarcasm.

Anyway if the Americans start up that "You'd be speaking German... " stuff we can just remind them that they'd still be speaking English if it wasn't for the French helping them out.

	13-05-2003 19:44									#66
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We'd be speaking Latin if it wasn't for the barbarian hordes

	13-05-2003 19:44									#67
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger To be fair I thought red4ever was actually supporting your comment aginst DF's comment.

Got it in one! Never mind, like MikeH says, maybe i'll put 2 winks in next time...

	13-05-2003 19:48									#68
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Willem obviously missed the sarcasm.

Ooops, I guess I missed something. (***He slinks away embarassed***)

	13-05-2003 19:53									#69
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Got it in one! Never mind, like MikeH says, maybe i'll put 2 winks in next time...

Sorry about that. I guess I still had my dander up from the original comment. I'm just getting really tired of hearing that same argument over and over again.

	13-05-2003 19:55									#70
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Its quite Ironic that the comment came form DF as he would have been aginst the US participation in WW2 anyway

	13-05-2003 19:57									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Sorry about that. I guess I still had my dander up from the original comment. I'm just getting really tired of hearing that same argument over and over again.

No worries, you could have brazened it out by saying you had your smilies turned off!

	13-05-2003 19:58									#72
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If DF was in charge the Japanese would rule the whole pacific and probably the US too. Hard for a bunch of non tax paying individuals to arrange aircraft carriers, tanks etc.

	13-05-2003 20:23									#73
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Iaiaiaian, it was your stupid f*cking party that made students have to pay in the first place...

No wonder Thatch-B*tch was still the 3rd most hated briton despite being out of politics for a decade...

	13-05-2003 20:45									#74
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Unlike Labour and the Liberal Democrats, the Conservative Party never introduced tuition fees, and has never been in favour of tuition fees. Quite how it is suddenly our fault is something of a mystery...

	13-05-2003 20:47									#75
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That's true but I've still made loads of good points about why this policy is lame.

	13-05-2003 20:47									#76
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I'm coming to them, don't worry.

	13-05-2003 21:07									#77
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MikeH,

quote: Getting away from the ridiculous "don't pay tax" argument...

That'd be a good start. **** off Yanks...

quote: I might not be totally behind the current government's policy but at least it is attempting to tackle those two problems, and they are beginning to address the problem of students from poorer backgrounds not wanting to get into debt at uni.

That's quite simply not true.

First of all, every indication is that the government's proposals for tuition fees will put off young people from poorer backgrounds from attending University. Indeed, one can see statistically that there has already been a regression since 1997. Furthermore, the government's social engineering meddling has actually only increased middle-class dominance at Universities; the percentage of middle-class students is actually higher amongst the postcode areas designated "deprived" by the government. Draw your own conclusions...

Secondly, the government is not even beginning to address the problems of underfunding; not a single penny of the money paid by students and their parents in tuition fees since 1997 has been invested in higher education. The new fees - if they produce any more income at all, buried as they are in extra bureaucracy, compromises and the "access regulator" - are going on expansion, not investment.

quote: Once again I'm left feeling that this is another "we should say what they want to hear" Conservative policy with no actual substance behind it.

Right... so when people dislike our policy, we're hopeless, and when we announce a good policy, we're opportunist.

This is an extremely serious, detailed proposal and will be fleshed out further in the coming weeks. Labour are running scared, even NUS has given grudging praise, roll on 2005!

Drogue,

quote: Universities need more money, else they just won't offer a decent degree.

Exactly. The Conservative proposal is to ensure that Universities do just that; should we really continue to fund degrees that are of no benefit to society or to the student?

	13-05-2003 21:20									#78
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Hmmm...

New fees going to expansion - Yes, absolutely. That's where they are supposed to be going. Anyway, your points still don't address the fact that the Conservatives plans don't address the problem of uni underfunding either. All they do is cut uni places so that they can drop tuition fees. I think you are right that neither policy effectively tackles the problem of research underfunding but at least under Labour more people get to go.

As for reductions in low income applications, that's also true. Been some gov't backpedaling on that recently. Which is probably why low income families already dont' have to pay tuition fees, I think they are starting to trickle back in what amounts to a grant for the lowest incomes as well. Both parties are also spouting the same line about getting more vocational courses in place.

I don't think this is a good policy, but it's still attempting to be opportunist.

I also noticed that the other points of the BBC report on this speech were that IDS intends to "Increase police numbers" which Labour is trying to do and struggling with, especially with the housing problems in the SE - only way I can see to do this is to increase pay and conditions as the current recruitment campaigns aren't increasing numbers fast enough. But they are also commited to low taxation. So what are they going to cut to pay for it all? Just sounds like the same thing they've always said and I still don't believe you can have more/better services and pay less tax.

	13-05-2003 21:26									#79
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quote: Which is probably why low income families already dont' have to pay tuition fees

They have to jump through hoops to avoid payment. Have you seen the forms involved? Also, what about students like my housemate Amy whose parents refuse to contribute, and hence she works 35-hour weeks at TopShop in addition to studying and pays her own fees?

	13-05-2003 21:29									#80
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Right... so when people dislike our policy, we're hopeless, and when we announce a good policy, we're opportunist.

The question is whether or not it is consistent with past policy and the overall ideology of the party and its current policies. If it isn't, it will certainly smack as opportunistic, coming from a party as far down in the polls as the Tories are.

	13-05-2003 21:31									#81
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* They have to jump through hoops to avoid payment. Have you seen the forms involved? Also, what about students like my housemate Amy whose parents refuse to contribute, and hence she works 35-hour weeks at TopShop in addition to studying and pays her own fees?

No, but it doesn't surprise me. The old grant forms were an absolute nightmare. Much like a tax return.

Sad to say but before fees and grants were abolished she wouldn't have been much worse off. When I went in '94 maintenance grants wouldn't even cover your rent. Not that I got one of course. If they scrap the tuition fees it'd only mean she had less debt when she left, not that she wouldn't have to work 35 hours a week.

	13-05-2003 21:52									#82
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My comment about war was sarcastic, I thought that was obvious, and directed at PH, not all of you.

Come on, guys

	13-05-2003 23:10									#83
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I wasn't being serious, don't think the other brits I was talking to earlier were either...

	13-05-2003 23:59									#84
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH If they scrap the tuition fees it'd only mean she had less debt when she left, not that she wouldn't have to work 35 hours a week.

That's an important factor in itself. If I didn't have to pay tuitions for my education, I would have saved at least $6-7,000 CAN from what I currently owe. At $283 per month, that shaves at least 3 years off the time it will take me to repay it all, with the interest compounded.

	14-05-2003 00:29									#85
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Unlike Labour and the Liberal Democrats, the Conservative Party never introduced tuition fees, and has never been in favour of tuition fees. Quite how it is suddenly our fault is something of a mystery...

Probably because they abolished the Student grant, Income support for students and Housing Benefit for students. Which equated to far more expense than the tuition charges.

Just a thought....

	14-05-2003 00:38									#86
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Did the Lib Dems ever introduce tuition fees? IIRC correctly, they have never been in power, and thus could not have.

Moreover, that was a different conservative party. I very much doubt the Conservatives would have left it tuition fee free for long if they had won in 1997. Public services may be worse now under Labour than they used to be, but I think they would be even worse if the Conservatives had remained in power.

	14-05-2003 08:24									#87
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3022459.stm

That's way too progressive, I think Duncan Smith has been taken over by the ghost of Karl Marx.

	14-05-2003 17:45									#88
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I'm not so sure. It is removing a payment that mostly falls on the middle class, reducing expansion, and thus breaker near to even. It simply means there will be fewer university places, but that those that are they will have to contribute less. If IDS believes it is a "tax on learning" then he is removing tax. If they stick to it, it seems like a good idea, but that is a big if IMHO. I wouldn't call it very progressive.

	14-05-2003 18:25									#89
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He's removing a tax and also removing a lot of learning, it's a very Conservative policy to cut tax by cutting services.

	14-05-2003 18:30									#90
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Its only cutting service if the people who run the thing chose to do that within theri reduced budget. they could sack their human resources departments and theat would free up millions