15-05-2003 16:34									#121
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Mike,

quote: And don't they get loans to pay the fees? So the actual up front cost to the student is still nothing (unless I've totally missed something). So it still has no effect on student wealth.

Nope. The loan can hardly be said to even cover basic living costs... my loan this year barely gives me any change from my housing costs, let alone including food and coursebooks, and my rent is comparatively cheap!

r4e,

quote: It seems to be a 'given' that it's bad for students to work, IMHO studying is not a full time occupation (although I'm sure Mr Forever will claim he consistantly puts in a 40 hour week at the books)

No, you're right, it isn't. It probably should be though. Certainly students should work over the long summer break, and I certainly have done and intend to (I couldn't get by otherwise).

	15-05-2003 16:42									#122
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I was under the impression that the point was supposed to be that the students could get loans to pay the fees.

I just checked and the loans are three times what they were when I was at uni. The max then (outside London) was £1,200 for a full year, now it's £3,900 so effectively you can pay the tuition out of that and still have more left than you had from your loan when I was there.

You can't live on it and it barely covers your rent now, and it never did when I was at uni either.

	15-05-2003 16:46									#123
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Perversely, you can't actually get the full £3900 if you also have to pay tuition fees...

	15-05-2003 16:47									#124
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Wasn't there still a grant in your day?

	15-05-2003 16:48									#125
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There was but I only know about 2 people who got one. If both your parents worked full time it'd be almost impossible for you to qualify.

	15-05-2003 22:02									#126
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* I don't get it Alex. On one hand, you're saying "who took away the grant?" and on the other "how can you afford to abolish fees?". I know you've got a natural aversion to Conservative governments, but really... I could ask "which party presided over massive expansion of the higher education sector to the point where it was no longer simply the sole preserve of the upper classes?" but I don't think you'd like the answer much. As for the poll tax, that has about as much relevence to today's Conservative Party as the three-day week does, and as much as unilateral disarmament has to the present Labour Party.

Aha. 3rd time lucky. I don't support the fact that tuition fees have to be paid, just as I didn't support the abolition of grants. I'd restore grants, and fund them through Income tax.

How would the Tories fund it? Will you answer this one on the third attempt? You see, presenting the Tories as "Friends of the Students" is like presnting the Tsetse Fly as the friend of sub-Saharan livestock farming.

Oh yes? I like the way you put "presided over massive expansion", which is a useful spin on "Didn't do much, really". Which party started the ball rolling, however?

	15-05-2003 22:11									#127
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You can't live on it and it barely covers your rent now, and it never did when I was at uni either.

Why not just up those limits slightly to take increased living expenses and tuition into account? Rework the means test slightly, so that it doesn't majorly impair an average parent's spending habits? It is such a long-term asset that a payment period of 30 years or more could be justified.

Last edited by DanS on 15-05-2003 at 22:18

	16-05-2003 14:05									#128
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Fair point, those loans are government run and very low interest though.

Difficult subject. I basically agree with Laz but I can't see anyone raising income tax to pay for higher education.

	16-05-2003 15:49									#129
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Personally, I'd certainly look at extending the provision for loans, but we're back at the vexed question of debt...

Laz, perhaps you could tell me the percentage of young people who entered higher education in 1979, and the respective figures for 1990 and 1997? Or the percentage of female students for the same dates? Or the percentage of "working-class" students? Well?

	16-05-2003 15:57									#130
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And you could go and find the corresponding percentages of students living below the poverty line.

	16-05-2003 16:00									#131
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Students living below the poverty line- oh come off it they could get a job or just put up with being poor for 3 years.

	16-05-2003 16:51									#132
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quote: my loan this year barely gives me any change from my housing costs, let alone including food and coursebooks, and my rent is comparatively cheap!

That is an argument for the provision of larger loans, and not an argument for someone else to pay for the investment in your human capital that will provide more benefits to you than anyone else.

	16-05-2003 16:56									#133
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Laz, perhaps you could tell me the percentage of young people who entered higher education in 1979, and the respective figures for 1990 and 1997? Or the percentage of female students for the same dates? Or the percentage of "working-class" students? Well?

Perhaps you'd like to tell me what the Tories actually did to achieve that? Or perhaps reflect on the fact that the reason why more 18+ aged people entered higher education post-79 might just have been due to the educational environment established in their preceding 18 years?

Or (more realistically) consider that the increase that the Tories "presided over" was achieved in spite of their acts, and not because of them?

Or even consider that what they "presided over" was the fruits of the long harvest sowed starting back with Clement Atlee and Harold Wilson?

	16-05-2003 17:24									#134
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Students make me sick with their endless campaigning to be given money in order to invest in themselves.

Usually it's the same whingers that complain about the Americans freeing a dictated people, or those who hate Israel, or those who care more about the great white newt in their local pond than anything else.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't classed as a student.

	16-05-2003 17:46									#135
	Got spare money?

In which case Stewart I am sure the University of Wales Aberystwyth will be glad to hear you'll shortly be sending them a cheque for £15000 to cover the cost of your tuition.

	16-05-2003 18:21									#136
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I would not moan at having to do so, so long as some charges apply equally to all students, regardless of income or upbringing, and that those students have access to loans plenty enough to provide for the costs and the associated means of living.

Doesn't it slightly surprise you that the best nightlife spots are in areas where there are large or many universities? If students were so poor...

Lastly, I'd like to question your integrity of making this point. Correct me if you will by pointing out a past post on this forum, but I don't remember you arguing with such vigour against student fees before the Tories came up with it to gain a few middle-class votes.

Class yourself a Tory if you will, but don't let their latest policy idea dictate your opinions.

	16-05-2003 18:25									#137
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Not all students are poor. A lot of them get loads of money from their parents.

The ones that are poor really do struggle though, like EiF's housemate.

	16-05-2003 18:28									#138
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"The ones that are poor really do struggle though, like EiF's housemate."

Two of my housemates next door get nothing from their parents. Apart from their thinness due to only liking crisps and burgers, they do get by. They don't hold a job either.

	16-05-2003 18:30									#139
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I've always been against fees. I have consistently argued against fees within Conservative Future, and have put those same arguments, with conviction, to numerous senior Conservative politicians. I have been elected as a York delegate to NUS Conference twice (once as delegation leader) with a commitment to work towards the abolition of fees, and I was elected to NUS Higher Education National Committee on a platform of opposing fees.

If you want to disagree with my opinions that's fair enough, but to say I've changed my position on fees is quite simply utter tripe.

	16-05-2003 18:30									#140
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I fail to see whats wrong with loans to pay living costs. I also think tuition fees should be paid by the government.

	16-05-2003 18:32									#141
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* I've always been against fees. I have consistently argued against fees within Conservative Future, and have put those same arguments, with conviction, to numerous senior Conservative politicians. I have been elected as a York delegate to NUS Conference twice (once as delegation leader) with a commitment to work towards the abolition of fees, and I was elected to NUS Higher Education National Committee on a platform of opposing fees. If you want to disagree with my opinions that's fair enough, but to say I've changed my position on fees is quite simply utter tripe.

Do the lefties at the NUS spit at you for being Tory. My experiance of most NUS types is that they are intolerant idiots

	16-05-2003 18:33									#142
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quote: I also think tuition fees should be paid by the government.

At the point of purchase, I'd happily agree.

	16-05-2003 18:46									#143
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quote: Do the lefties at the NUS spit at you for being Tory. My experiance of most NUS types is that they are intolerant idiots

It depends. There's a fair group of us at NUS Conference now, so it's not like a tiny group hiding in the corner anymore. Obviously the extreme-left are as vindictive as ever but for the most part they are there to be laughed off, but we came out of this year's Conference in better shape than ever...

	16-05-2003 18:56									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Doesn't it slightly surprise you that the best nightlife spots are in areas where there are large or many universities? If students were so poor...

Around 5 years ago John Moores University in Liverpool handed out a questionaire asking it's students why they choose that Uni over the others, the top anwser? The nightclub Cream!
And as a person who used to go, I can tell you it wasn't a cheap night out!

	16-05-2003 18:58									#145
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Well you certainly wouldn't go to JMU for the teaching...

	16-05-2003 19:50									#146
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but we're back at the vexed question of debt

Why is that a vexed question? Many people have a home mortgage and seem to do just fine. An education is a longer-term asset than a house, so could pay the loan out over an even longer period than for houses, and based on individual circumstances.

Fair point, those loans are government run and very low interest though.

I don't have any problem with a subsidized and synthetic student loan market. We have the same over here. Or rather, many of the loans are sold by banks, then they are bought, packaged and securitized by Sallie Mae, a government/public corporation, which in turn sells the resulting securities to big investors like Sten. Long story short, there is lots of government involvement, but it's a market solution, by and large.

Interest accrues during your time in school, but you don't have to pay it back while in school. You get 6 months grace once you're out of school. If you go back to school full time for another degree, payment obligation is suspended.

You can do all sorts of things to reduce the hardships and inequities in a loan-based system, if you are so inclined.

	16-05-2003 20:02									#147
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Yeah, I just meant that the government might not want to have too much money in that loan scheme at any one time.

You don't have to pay them back until you are earning a certain amount which means there's no guarantee when they get it back.

	16-05-2003 20:09									#148
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Yeah, I just meant that the government might not want to have too much money in that loan scheme at any one time.

You don't have to pay them back until you are earning a certain amount which means there's no guarantee when they get it back.

That's why our government put in place a market system whereby the student loans are packaged, securitized and then sold to investors. The investors bear the risk, while the government bears some up-front costs, based on what kind of activity it wants to promote (means-testing on payments is an expensive proposition for the gov't and doesn't make much sense to me anyway). Investors are much more capable than the government of figuring out these parameters over the long run. The government just sets the rules for a standard loan.

	17-05-2003 21:55									#149
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And yet again, another argument comes down to those who favour markets to those who don't. Strange how the Tories are favouring the anti-market solution.

	17-05-2003 22:01									#150
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And yet again, another argument comes down to those who favour markets to those who don't. Strange how the Tories are favouring the anti-market solution.