15-05-2003 01:15									#1
	3D Offices Increase Your PM Length

This is a thread to post any articles you would like to enter the next edition of 3D, to have a look at 3D before it's posted, and to bring up anything 3D related you wish. All for the approval of the faction.

I wish to bring up the name. Since it is not going to be Daily, the Daily Data Download is not strictly accurate. Thus, what can we replace Daily with, begining with a D? Digital maybe?

I will write a piece on the election, and the report about the first turn, when it is played. If someone could write a bit about the journey here, or they beginings on life on Planet, or our philosophical ideas?

The election piece will be written in RP, whereas the report will be mroe factual based, and purely for private forums. I can do the beginings of life on Planet if needs be too, and we could give hints to things around us (lush green plains, or the towering mountains for example, but not giving anything at all sensitive). I will also write bits of "Meditations on Logic" which you may have seen an extract of already, which I could post a little thing at the bottom of 3D, like a thought for the day thing.

What do you guys think? Good ideas?

EDIT: TKG Rules!

Last edited by Method on 15-05-2003 at 03:51

	15-05-2003 03:51									#2
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i just have a suggestion for name. instead of "3D" i think it'd sound a bit more CyCon-ish if we called it "D^3"

	15-05-2003 15:15									#3
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What do others think? If we get a majority, then we'll change it.

3D, or D^3?

	15-05-2003 23:59									#4
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i dont care...

	16-05-2003 00:16									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

There is a poll for it here if anyone does care Please vote abstain if you don't mind, since we know when all 6 have voted. Thank you.

Last edited by Drogue on 16-05-2003 at 00:23

	16-05-2003 00:19									#6
	In the Beginning, there was Logic - Article for Issue 1 Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In the Beginning, there was Logic

It has been a turbulent time since we were on Unity. After the escape in the pod, we, the Cybernetic Consciousness, have finally established ourselves on the planet we have named, Chiron. A small band of the most logical CyCon members, have founded a base of operations. This base has been dubbed, Apolyton Prime.

Situated in lush greenery, on the banks of a river, Apolyton Prime is a sight to behold. Though the population may be small, the few elite Cyborgs that reside within have great plans for it. The first action was to gather the populace, and hold an election, for the one to be designated ‘Prime Function’. Much discussion and deliberation ensued, but thanks to the inherent telepathy the Cyborgs possess, almost immediately the deciding vote was cast, and Drogue Beta-8 was elected as Prime Function. Having just missed out on the title of Prime Function, Mani Alpha-3 was duly appointed as Second Function. Currently, the other Cyborgs are deciding on their specialities, and are forming into a close-nit group of specialist advisors.

With leadership in place, and a private meeting place created, The Cybernetic Consciousness have ventured their first steps out of Apolyton Prime, and have begun exploring the vast expanses of Chiron. A few intrepid Cyborgs have volunteered to be the pioneers, and lead two small groups out into the wilderness to form new colonies.

In order to keep information secret from other factions, there has been much debate among CyCon about codes. While this broadcast is unable to tell you the codes, we are allowed to report a 100% success rate so far, both in keeping secret, and in re-translating it. Codes are continually under review, as discussions about secrecy abound in meeting places all over Chiron, to try to prevent infiltrations by factions with different goals.

On the topic of goals, there has been much discussion about the philosophy of The Cybernetic Consciousness, primarily between the Prime and Second Function, who have been heard deliberating well into the night. The main topic being about the nature of emotions, and whether one can be emotional while being truly logical. The debate began in earnest, when the issue of emotions was bought up with Prime Function Drogue Beta-8 declaring that the Cyborgs should not experience emotions, as emotions were all illogical. To that Second Function Mani Alpha-3 retorted that the Cyborgs should experience emotion, and that in fact emotions are logical most of the time, so they should no longer be suppressed by our algorythms. The debate is still continuing, as the interested reader can see in our Prime Function’s column. Aki Zeta-5 had this to say about the issue:

quote: Those who join us need give up only half of their humanity - the illogical, ill-tempered and disordered half, commonly thought of as the ´right-brain´function. In exchange, the ´left-brain' capacities are increased to undreamed potential. The tendency of biologicals to cling instead to their individual personalities can only be attributed archaic evolutionary tendencies.

Please tell me what you think. This is what I intend to put as an article for issue 1 of 3D. Ideas, comments and constructivbe criticism is welcomed

	16-05-2003 00:22									#7
	The Philosophical Section - Article for Issue 1 Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The Philosophical Section

This philosophical discussion brought up many questions: Can an emotion ever be truly logical and rational? If emotions are logical, then does it make a difference whether they exist or not? Is logic an emotion? And one of the great questions, “Could there be more to a person than logic?"

On this subject, Drogue Beta-8 would like to share an extract of his work entitled “Meditations on Logic”:

quote: Can a Cyborg ever feel emotion? Instantly my mind wanders towards a no, yet after deliberation, it seems I may have hastily discounted a possibility. What is emotion? It is commonly described to mean “an instinctive feeling as opposed to reason”. Taking this definition, it seems to support my feeling that no, we are not affected by emotion. Does this deny the possibility of rational, logical emotions? There are two arguments for this, the first is starting from the assumption that there are rational, logical emotions; whereas the second is discussing whether there exist. Presuming rational, logical emotions exist, if Cyborgs are affected by them, then their outcome must be that which is logical, meaning that there would be no difference between the outcome that logical, and that which is supported by logical emotion. This meaning that it does not matter whether Cyborgs have logical emotions or not, as their actions would be the same regardless. If the outcomes should differ, than that emotion is not truly logical, and thus logic should overrule it, as the defining characteristic of all Cyborgs. While the definition given earlier states that emotion and reason are seperate, there is still the issue of whether emotions can ever be logical. I find it hard to believe so. Even taking Hume’s, a celebrated philosopher from Earth, position that “reason cannot give rise to moral judgements”, I cannot bring myself to state that reason can ever be illogical. Indeed, Hume is merely asserting that moral’s, a set of laws that force someone into certain actions, are themselves, illogical. If we only look at those actions that are moral, we may miss an opportunity to do an action, which, though others may find it immoral, ultimately benefits our faction and society. Therefore, since emotions are opposed to reason, and that, according to the standard Earthian dictionary with which Hume was accustomed, reason is "a logical form", I must conclude that logic and emotions are separate entities, and that logical emotions is an oxymoron. As rational, logical beings, first and foremost, we therefore cannot have emotions, since any emotions we have must be logical, and logical emotions do not exist. Indeed, Aki Zeta-5's great speech, regarding left and right brain functions, states that the right brain functions must be given up to become CyCon. Taking that as fact, it means we cannot simply be human, but with more logic, we must give up the illogical parts. Reading the speech, given in the article entitled "In the Beginning..." suggests very strongly that in "right-brain functions" she means emotions. Moreover, the statement that "The tendency of biologicals to cling instead to their individual personalities can only be attributed archaic evolutionary tendencies" shows the Cyborgs distaste of individuality, without which, would emotions be possible, even discounting everything else against it? Without individual personalities, we cannot have emotions unless every single CyCon feels the same, all of the time. That is quite a thing to comprehend. Looking at all of this, I can see but one logical explanation -Functions of The Collective Consciousness do not have emotions. To reach any other conclusion, you would have to use such a loose explanation of emotion, logic, rationalily and reason, that I cannot come to such a conclusion. I would like to leave all with this thought. Since logic is reasonable, and reason logical, to the extent that their boundaries are blurred, Cyborgs can take comfort from the thoughts of another rational and extremely influential philosopher from Earth, Immanuel Kant. Kant asserted that reason is “intellect personified”, and even stated that “God and Reason are identical”. Therefore Cyborgs, as the epitome of logic, are the epitome of intelligence, and akin to Gods.

Despite the Prime Function's thoughts on the subect, it is rumoured that there have been experiments, changing the algorithms of some Cyborgs to see whether it is compatable with rational behaviour. This is unconfirmed, but if we find it to be true, 3D will bring you the full story first.


Again, ideas, comments and constructive criticism welcome. I indend to write or get someone else to write a short (shorter than this probably) section on something philosophical each issue, to keep our brains and logic circuits sharp. Good idea or not?

	16-05-2003 00:36									#8
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I have some comments, but my internet connection is dropping constantly, so it might take a while. When do you intend to publish it?

	16-05-2003 00:51									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

At the weekend probably. Saturday maybe? Depends when I get articles from other people. I want to have at least 3, and preferably 4 or 5 before I publish it (including my two).

It might not be your internet, 'Poly is being extremely slow ATM, and mine is beign troublesome because of it. You could email comment to me if you wish, akizeta@lineone.net.

	16-05-2003 01:45									#10
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I made some changes to the last paragraph? Is it ok or should it be changed? I'm still not sure: are you saying now that we have emotions or not?

quote: On the topic of goals, there has been much discussion about the philosophy of The Cybernetic Consciousness, primarily between the Prime and Second Function, who have been heard deliberating well into the night. The main topic being about the nature of emotions, and whether one can be emotional while being truly logical. The argument began when Prime Function Drogue Beta-8 declared (in utter calmness) that the Cyborgs did not experience emotions, as emotions were all illogical. To that Second Function Mani Alpha-3 retorted (in a rage of fury) that the Cyborgs do experience emotion, and that in fact emotions are logical most of the time, so they should not be suppressed. The debate is still continuing, with views still shifting and being nuanced, as the interested reader can see in our Prime Function’s column.

	16-05-2003 02:17									#11
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I am saying that we do not have emotions, however I will make that more clear in my Philosophical Section. I still think, looking at the fact that logic=reason (according to the OED) and that reason/=(cannot equal) emotion (again from the OED) that if we are logical and rational, we cannot be emotional, nor guided by emotion. If emotion cannot be guided by logic, then I think as uber rational, logical beings, we cannot have emotions. Also, Aki Zeta argues against individuality, laughing at humans that see themselves as idividuals. If we are not individuals, but part of a collective, we cannot have individual emotions. Can a collective have an emotion at all?

I like your paragraph a lot, much better than mine However, even if we have emotions, would you respond "in a rage of fury"? And do you believe that "lemotions are logical most of the time"?

Also, I think we should quote Aki Zeta-5's speech, seeing as this is the first issue, and it is on which our faction was based. Let's use yours, but with modifications I think.

Will you write something for the first issue? Maybe something on our aims and aspirations?

	16-05-2003 02:26									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: However, even if we have emotions, would you respond "in a rage of fury"?

Well it was just meant as an ironic illustration of our different opinions about emotion.

quote: Will you write something for the first issue?

I'll try to; it would probably be "the opinion of the other side" on the issue of emotions. But I doubt it will be today, as I keep having problem with the internet. As a consequence I have trouble accessing
what you have written, making it difficult to give a reaction.

	16-05-2003 03:01									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I have updated both pieces (last paragraph of the first, sections of the second).

Personally, I was intending to have one "Philosophical Section" per issue, because I think more will bore the reader, and they won't read it. If you wish to write the other side, feel free, but we'll end up with maybe 2 philosophy articles and 1 news one. If someone could write a news one that is a bit fictional, it would be good. We want to try to trick others

Maybe something on our commitment to pacifism, and our desire to live in peace with all factions. It will be received well, others will like us for it, and then we can really catch them off guard, as they won't defend much against us. I could write it, but I've written 2, and I think people will look at it as if it was my work, when I'd rather it was a faction wide thing. However, if people don't want to, I will be happy to

If you wish to do something, please state so here.

	16-05-2003 03:42									#14
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I've read your column for the sixth time, and I still don't get your structure, and how you leap from one subject to the other. The first four paragraphs are clear of course, except this (I assume spelling) mistake:

quote: whereas the second is discussing whether there exist.

Should that be:

quote: whereas the second is discussing whether they [logical emotions] exist.

?

But then:
First you start with saying:

quote: While it seems to state that, there is the question of whether at time, emotion can be logical and reason not so.

After which you jump to a completely different subject a Hume and morals. What's the connection?

Later then, you say:

quote: Therefore, since emotions are opposed to reason,

But where have you proofed that emotion is opposed to reason?


Anyway, to make sure we only have one "column/philosophical article", could I write an article about a secret (well not so secret otherwise there wouldn't be an article about it) undercover splinter group of the Cybernetic Consciousness, who tamper with their algorithms to experience emotions, and who oppose Aki Zeta-5's ideas?

	16-05-2003 05:29									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I've written the following article. As we can't have a Prime Function claiming the Consciousness members have emotions, and a Second Function claiming they do have emotions, how about this: Most of the Consciousness is as Drogue and Aki Zeta-5 seem to want it: a bunch of mindless borg drones without any emotion or individuality. However, to satisfy those like me who like to see the Consciousness members as usual humans with just a few more capabilities, I created a splinter group of people who have adjusted algorythms and are less tied to the "Hive Mind". As you may know, the idea of the Unimatrix is ripped off from Startrek: Voyager.

----------------------

APOLYTON PRIME, Six Terran months after landing -- Yesterday night Function Niki Theta-2, Prime Code of Faction Security, announced in a digital datapress conference the existence of an undercover splinter group in the Cybernetic Consciousness, calling themselves Unimatrix 001.

This group has been active since four months ago. Faction Security was aware of their existence for quite some time, but only recently Security has decided to make their existence known to the entire faction. The reason why Security waited so long has not been officially disclosed, but reliable sources indicate that Security can no longer contain this splinter group. Apparently even a Consciousness member in the highest echelons would be contaminated. By making Unimatrix 001's existence known to everyone, they hope all loyal citizens will report suspicious behaviour of other citizens to the Algorithmic Authorities, who will then act aptly upon the information to ensure the continued prosperity and progress of the Cybernetic Consciousness. In the aforementioned datapress conference, Prime Code Niki Theta-2 explained the irrational ideology of Unimatrix 001, and gave tips on how to recognize its followers.

Basically Unimatrix 001 is an illogical rebellion against the algorythms which enhance our left-brain capacities and suppress our irrational and useless emotions. This group believes the odd idea that most emotions are logical, and not archaic evolutionary characteristics to be ignored and eradicated. In fact they even claim that, if emotions were not logical and useless, they would not have evolved over the millennia. To the notion put forward by our Prime Function in his "Meditations on Logic" that, if logical emotions would exist, there would be no difference in outcome between using emotion or logic as guide, thus making emotions pointless no matter what, a captured and interrogated Unimatrix 001 member replied: "If the outcome is the same, why suppress emotions? If the old system of emotions works well, why replace it with a system giving the same results? That's simply inefficient!"

When further questioned about the hypothesis that, even if most emotions would be logical, there would still be a few illogical ones disrupting your thought processes, making the emotional system imperfect, Unimatrix 001 members mention the concept of "self-knowledge", which would be able to make distinctions between logical and illogical emotions. After checking with Functions schooled in primitive biohuman psychology, it appears that concept is related to the redundant evolutionary characteristic of "individuality", something the Consciousness observes with distaste.

In order to experience the emotions they desire so much, Unimatrix 001 have made succesful attempts of tampering with their algorythms. Their tweaked and malfunctioning algorythms also give them more individuality. These algorithmic changes betray them however. If you see a Consciousness member with a weird facial expression, or a citizen whose inner voice you can't hear loud and clear in the Hive Mind, it is very likely he or she is a Unimatrix dissident. When meeting someone, please telepath a message to State Security on the telecode

code:
01010011011001010110001101110101011100100110
 10010111010001111001001000000101010001110010011000
 01011011100111001101100011011001010110100101110110
0110010101110010

	16-05-2003 17:58									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Maniac: The first bit is a spelling mistake. The start of paragraph 5 needs to be changed, as I changed what it related to

The "it" in "While it seems to state" regards to the OED definition earlier, and the proof of emotion opposed to reason is also that OED quote, given in paragraph 2, that: "[emotion is] an instinctive feeling as opposed to reason". I will change the wording to see if I can get it to make more sense.

I love the idea about the splinter group. Indeed, Cedayon should be joining us soon, although mostly idling and making the occasional point, and he has said he wishes to forgo the Cybernetic implants. This he could also join the splinter group.

As for the actual article, I like it, but a few things I am unsure about. Is this group illogical? If so, why are they in the CyCon? also, your statement

quote: To the notion put forward by our Prime Function in his "Meditations on Logic" that, if logical emotions would exist, there would be no difference in outcome between using emotion or logic as guide, thus making emotions pointless no matter what, a captured and interrogated Unimatrix 001 member replied: "If the outcome is the same, why suppress emotions? If the old system of emotions works well, why replace it with a system giving the same results? That's simply inefficient!"

seemed to miss the point. I said that if there were logical emotions, they would give the same answer, but argued in the next paragraph that logical emotions could not exist, as logic and reason are so closely linked, and reason is opposed to emotion (both from OED definitions).

Personally, I would have bought it more if it was an experiment (we like doing those for research, maybe secret) into whether emotions could make things more efficient, like the "knee-jerk" reaction of emotions, that involved having those cyborgs with their left brain algorithms put back into the Consciousness. thus you would still be connected, but able to experience some emotions (maybe keeping it to ones that can be argued logically).

I think the story is good, but I would change a couple of things, such as to make it an experiment that went to far, rather than a group that got together and did it themselves, because that would require individuality before they got slightly seperated, and would also require illogical emotions to break free. Plus, the experiment puts less of a negatve against our faction. Your story is almost saying that we cannot handle our own, even with out superior intelligence. As it is, it does not seem like the CyCon to me. RP is great, but surely muist be based on our faction, and what Aki Zeta-5 said is one o the very few things the game has already decided for our faction. To go against that leaves us with a faction that can't quite call itselve the Cybernetic Consciousness, as we don't conform to the CyCon rules. I will publish it as it if you really wish, but I would like a few opinions from others too. If many people see us as emotional at times, even against our ethos, I will go with it, but I have to say when reading it, I don't find it that believable.

I mean no offence at all by any of this, I am not arguing against you so much, as the idea of emotions. I see us all as individual to some extent, as I feel that can be more efficient. Like FM, it could be like us all working independently for the common good. Especially since we are all different people, as we are showing, but I think to be CyCon, logic and rationality are the overriding features. Thus I feel uncomfortable with having emotions.

What do others think?


Also, on a seperate matter, I saw Herc's little discussion about God (Googlie) and his little Lord's Prayer adapted line, and have written this prayer (logical since a prayer to a God we know exists ) which I would like to put into 3D:

Our CMN, who art in all forums,
hallowed by thy name.
Should our Faction win,
thy will be done,
on Chiron as it failed on Earth.
Give us this day, our daily data.
And forgive us our experiments,
as we forgive those who experiment upon us.
And lead us not into the fungus,
but deliver us from the Hive.
For thine is the map, the power and and the glory.
For ever and ever.
Amen.

Prime Function's "Prayer to Googlie"

	16-05-2003 18:16									#17
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Here is the article I promised about the new Cabinet. Just a short piece:

Newsflash!
This, hot of the databanks, straight from Apolyton Prime:

The Government of The Cybernetic Consciousness has been decided just minutes ago. I am now able to report that joining Prime Function Drogue Beta-8 and Second Function Mani Alpha-3 are:
Function TK Gamma-8 – Adviser for Internal Affairs,
Function Corelli Omega-9 – Adviser for Foreign Affairs,
Function Delta – Adviser to the Military and
Function Book Upsilon Mu – Adviser for Science.

This new Cabinet heralds a new era for The Cybernetic Consciousness, embarking on their great and logical path to world domination peace and prosperity for all!

All at 3D wish them strength and logic.


Is it ok?

	17-05-2003 00:40									#18
	Got spare money?

great! i've designed some logos for the 3D, and i'll post them as soon as i can figure out how to get my FTP working again...

	17-05-2003 00:47									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

hm, that was fast:







choose from these, suggest improvements (different colours maybe?) or MAK YOUR OWN F***ING LOGO!!!

	17-05-2003 01:00									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I like it

Personally, I think the main one should have a binary background, and I'd probably go for the last one. The first looks a little bitty, although might work smaller, but either that or the last IMHO. I think #2 & #3 would work for smaller ones, at the end.

If it's ok I'll have a play with it, and then post a preliminary one on here. Any articles people writing? TKG? DBTS? Anyone? Another would be nice

	17-05-2003 01:03									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Err... I like them all.

	17-05-2003 01:06									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Drogue, I'll see if I can rewrite the article as an experiment as you suggest, started after the discussions we had about emotions. I don't know for sure if I'll be able to do it before tomorrow when you publish the first 3 though.
I'll respond to your arguments in the Philosophy thread, so we can keep things in one thread.

	17-05-2003 01:12									#23
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quote: Prime Function's "Prayer to Googlie"

GooglieGod saw, and was pleased

GG

	17-05-2003 01:15									#24
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Maniac: Great idea, this should be just for 3D stuff. If it looks like I have enough stuff, I will publish it tomorrow, and will do an 'extra' edition when you have finished that.

	17-05-2003 01:39									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Drogue Any articles people writing? TKG? DBTS? Anyone? Another would be nice

well i'd write something, but i can't think of anything to write about. plus, i'll be away all day tomorrow, and since i'll have to get up at 5.00 tomorrow morning, i have to *begin regeneration sequence* at about 20.00 tonight

IOW, i might write something if i can do it withing a few hours...and if you give me a topic

	17-05-2003 01:43									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

Philosophy article has been updated so that it makes sense is easier to read

	17-05-2003 02:54									#27
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I won't be able anymore to write my article before tomorrow.

Meanwhile, could I please ask you again to make some changes to your articles? I find it rather odd actually that we, members of the Consciousness, are discussing in those articles whether we have emotions. I mean, either our algorythm is programmed to allow, or not to allow them. Instead, shouldn't we be discussing whether we should have emotions? That would require a few changes to the articles. For the first it's simple: only a few words need to be added:

quote: The debate began in earnest, when the issue of emotions was bought up with Prime Function Drogue Beta-8 declaring that the Cyborgs should not experience emotions, as emotions were all illogical. To that Second Function Mani Alpha-3 retorted that the Cyborgs should experience emotion, and that in fact emotions are logical most of the time, so they should no longer be suppressed by our algorythms. The debate is still continuing, as the interested reader can see in our Prime Function’s column. Aki Zeta-5 had this to say about the issue:

	17-05-2003 03:25									#28
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That is true and a good idea. I will do that for the one to be released. Do not worry about writing yours then. I have written a bit at the end of my philosophy one leading into it, but for a later date. I will publish it as a extra whenever it's done. Take your time

However, about the emotions. My thoughts were about whether or not we do, rather than should have them. If we change it to that, I agree a lot more. I think we don't, as Aki Zeta says, which is what we are IMHO. What we should be is open to much more interpretation. However, whether it would be beneficial or not (i would still argue not, although not so strongly( but I passionately believe that we are not, at the moment. I don't think we have the technology for that until we get at least Self-Aware Mechanics and more likely Digital Sentience.

Edit: Have updated. Thanks for that Maniac

Last edited by Drogue on 17-05-2003 at 03:31

	17-05-2003 03:43									#29
	Tired of ads?

Oh yes, I see you still haven't deleted the fifth paragraph in your first article, which is the earlier version of the sixth paragraph. Don't forget to delete it before going to press.

	17-05-2003 03:48									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Talking of stuff for the new issue, I have some more artwork thsat could work. Here are a couple of examples, tell me which you like. Also I'm looking for a new Avatar (since my STEP one is out of date) and would like to use one of these for that:


The standard Aki Zeta-5 pic, if a rather nice example


The rather heavy-handed Cyborg bouncer, to stop intruders entering our private meeting place




A few examples of Cyborg Scout Patrols.


A picture about consciousness. Possible Avatar for me?




Some drawings of Cyborgs, a bit more arty. Possible Avatars?


The obligatory female pic She is, apparently, a Cyborg

Ok, so which ones should I use for 3D, and which should become my new Avatar?