15-05-2003 11:37									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "It has very little to do with race and a lot to do with when kids start training and how hard they work at a particular sport." Sounds alot like 'white track people lack attitude' to me.'

That's not what I'm saying in any way.

But for discussion sake, lets say someone argues that white track people don't have the right attitude to win. Is that better then saying blacks are better sprinters because of their natural abilities rather than their attitude and willingness to train.

To me, both attitudes are insulting. That what bugs me a bit about this discussion. People look at a great athlete and say "Yeah, he's good cause he is black.

A guy like Carl Lewis is not a great athlete because he is black. He is a great athlete because of training, physical and mental, and atttiude.

	15-05-2003 11:39									#32
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1. Skinny ankles
2. Extra calf muscles
3. Lower body fat
4. Higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fibre
5. Nostrils are larger allowing a higher uptake of oxygen

	15-05-2003 11:41									#33
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i breath thru my mouth when i run

	15-05-2003 11:47									#34
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you also breathe through your nose you just don't realize it

	15-05-2003 11:48									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker 1. Skinny ankles 2. Extra calf muscles 3. Lower body fat 4. Higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fibre 5. Nostrils are larger allowing a higher uptake of oxygen

Skinny ankles?

	15-05-2003 11:53									#36
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I was being serious and yes that's a reason they are faster.

	15-05-2003 12:06									#37
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Really? I thought you were being ironic. Too bad. It's much funnier as irony.

	15-05-2003 12:14									#38
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Where are the mods? Isn't this thread deeply racist?

*resists the urge to use irony*

	15-05-2003 12:59									#39
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"you also breathe through your nose you just don't realize it"

There was a study of the effcts of those nasal strips sporty-types were using a few years ago to hold open their nostrils wider, so allowing more air into their lungs. They showed that they were useless, since the amount of air going in to the lungs through the mouth overwhelmed any gain through the nose...so I would assume the same applied to nasal shapes.

	15-05-2003 13:29									#40
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Calc -

quote: then a white man with same body porportion should have equal chance with blacks no? But during competition a same sized whites often lose alot to blacks, so I dont think ur argument of "blacks win because they got longer legs" really work.

"Longer legs" was just an example of how genetics and environment encompass "why". People living in colder climes tend to be heavier built too, i.e., bone structure and mass. But if you found a black and white guy with roughly equal physiques and training, I see no reason why one would be significantly faster. But as others have pointed out, many African athletes have both the genetics and environment, and superior training (high altitude running). Andean Indians and Tibetans have greater lung capacity than people living at lower altitudes, etc...

Tingkai -

quote: And that explains why the bushmen and the pygmies are so tall.

What GP said. Environment AND genes matter.

	15-05-2003 13:47									#41
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I have actually seen a long document about this. It was interesting. These guys were measuring runners in Kenya and then versus white runners. Then back at the lab they tested all the guys, and black guys seemed to have LOTS more those fast.. I don't know what you call it, fast cells? by nature. THose fast things can be produced by HARD training, and black men seemed to gain the lot easier than white men.

They even measured white runner born in Africa against black man who wasn't training that much, and back at the tests the black man was improving so fast with the fast thingies that they said it's only matter of time when he wins the white guy who had trained long time.
And that applied outside Africa too.

Then at long distance running it wasn't so obvious, but African people like in Kenya were superior with the same training, because of the climate and because of training high altitude at all times.

I don't know, but it seemed like it could be the answer, they stuck lots of needles to these guys.

But basically it concluded that in short distances white men must train a lot harder to gain those fast things, and because black short distance runners train hard also, well they are better. In long distance running it's not same, but lot of African runners have optimum training conditions, and there are lots of runners in Africa because it's a big sport there and sometimes a way out.

	15-05-2003 14:02									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Tingkai - What GP said. Environment AND genes matter.

Berzerker: You claimed that the environment affected the evolution of genes.
"Blacks have traditionally lived in hotter climes so the body reacts over 10's of millennia and becomes lankier/taller to increase evaporation to regulate body temps."

The Bushmen and Pgymies have lived in hot climes for thousands of years and yet are not tall. According to your theory, they should be giants.

You claim that "People who live in colder areas or have "recently migrated from colder areas have bulkier/shorter bodies to conserve heat."

But, Northern Europeans are generally taller than people from tropical Southeast Asia.

Your theory doesn't hold water.

	15-05-2003 14:08									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I have actually seen a long document about this. It was interesting. These guys were measuring runners in Kenya and then versus white runners. But basically it concluded that in short distances white men must train a lot harder to gain those fast things, and because black short distance runners train hard also, well they are better.

Your conclusion is incorrect.

What the study would prove, if your initial facts are correct, is that Kenyans are better suited for sprints.

Just because some Kenyans are better sprinters doesn't mean that all blacks are better sprinters.

Did the show test white men with high amounts of these fast twitch muscle things?

I have read that the Soviet Union used to do take muscle samples from young athletes. If the kid had fast twitch muscles then they would be trained for sports where this was an advantage. If they had endurance type muscles they would be trained in another sport.

	15-05-2003 14:16									#44
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I might remember wrong, and explain it wrong too..
They tested white men with with fast twitch muscle things, but they were hard to find . And basically if they had about the same amount, they were in the samel level in running with the black dudes.

	15-05-2003 14:16									#45
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Blacks are not faster or stronger or more pron to athletics or whatever.

It's that in the US you have performed a sort of eugenics since only the stronger slaves were selected to be shipped to America so that they wouldn't die too fast working in the plantations.


Blacks, normal blacks, come in all sorts of sizes and strengths and if you take a trip to countries were they have lots of students from Africa you'd see that.

	15-05-2003 14:18									#46
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the altitude theory doesn't explain all the fast jamaicans and trinidadians and such.

	15-05-2003 14:18									#47
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almost correct paiktis. If you are american, you get few seconds knocked out right away, and if you happen to be christian also, well you brake the 10 second limit with the power of Jesus Christ our saviour and might lord with that American flag in your chest.

	15-05-2003 14:18									#48
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Gangwrolf, no, it was supposed to mean for the longs distance runners, not short distance.

	15-05-2003 14:21									#49
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quote: Berzerker: You claimed that the environment affected the evolution of genes. "Blacks have traditionally lived in hotter climes so the body reacts over 10's of millennia and becomes lankier/taller to increase evaporation to regulate body temps." The Bushmen and Pgymies have lived in hot climes for thousands of years and yet are not tall. According to your theory, they should be giants.

Why do you ignore what GP said? Genes are a factor regardless of environment, but it's no coincidence we find the tallest people in Africa. The Bushmen have lived far south of the equator for a long time and Pygmies occupy the tropical forests where there's more shade. But the tallest Africans have lived on the open plains nearer the equator where there isn't much shade.

quote: You claim that "People who live in colder areas or have "recently migrated from colder areas have bulkier/shorter bodies to conserve heat."

Yes, physical anthropologists have been saying this for decades.
Neandertals were emigres from Africa but became even heavier than their hominid ancestors in Africa while other hominids who stayed closer to Africa became more gracile (like us).

quote: But, Northern Europeans are generally taller than people from tropical Southeast Asia.

Genes man, genes. Environment doesn't mean we will only find tall people in hot climates and short people in cold climates, but trends are quite obvious. Btw, SE asians migrated there so it's not like they've been living there for eons. These changes take a long time. "White" people are white because they and their ancestors have lived in northern regions long enough to lose the melanin their African ancestors once had.

quote: Your theory doesn't hold water.

Tell that to all the anthropologists who study genetics and environment.

	15-05-2003 14:25									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka almost correct paiktis. If you are american, you get few seconds knocked out right away, and if you happen to be christian also, well you brake the 10 second limit with the power of Jesus Christ our saviour and might lord with that American flag in your chest.

Do their drugs also have sideffects to the brain?



Besides the world champion is Greek

	15-05-2003 14:25									#51
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pekka: ok. just found it odd that everyone was using high altitude kenya as an example when there are so many fast blacks in other (low altitude) parts of the world as well.

	15-05-2003 14:28									#52
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We all know it was an accident and this summer he won't even make it to the finals.

	15-05-2003 14:30									#53
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Munich 2002, again

	15-05-2003 14:30									#54
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Gangerolf, yes. I meant to say that Kenyans for example are good long distance runners and white men can compete with black men from other countries, and that black men in general are good in short distances from all over the world. I don't know if it's true, but that's what I meant to say.

	15-05-2003 14:31									#55
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paiktis, that's because white supremacists fixed the tracks. That Greek guy had a lots faster track than the other guys. I know this for a fact.

	15-05-2003 14:33									#56
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oh please pekka


And let's not forget Sidney too

	15-05-2003 14:34									#57
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The "height is caused by environment" is an outdated and flawed theory. It's full of holes.

That's why the "height is caused by diet" theory is now accepted as being more valid.

We have statistical proof for different races and countries that average heights have increased as diets have improved. The Japanese are much taller now, on average, compared to 50 years ago, because their diet has improved. So are North Americans.

The food theory explains why Northern Chinese are generally taller than Southern Chinese. Their diets are different (grain-based in the north, rice-based in the south).

	15-05-2003 14:34									#58
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BTW how can they "fix the tracks"????

	15-05-2003 14:59									#59
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paiktis ur allegiance to the politically correct is quaint. but perhaps anecdotal evidence is all but inane? when other ppl suppose scientifically founded theories as to why blacks have an advantage in certain athletic endeavours and u show a picture of one white dude winning a race. do u not feel intellectually bankrupt in the slightest?

	15-05-2003 15:01									#60
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no because I wasn't trying to make a point.

Dont you feel utterly dumb jumping to your premade conclusions if not for your total lack of understanding, DL?