15-05-2003 21:39									#1
	Tobacco? For Shame Firaxis! Support Apolyton

Accoring to the press release here, Firaxis is including tobacco as a luxury resource. While this is historically correct, I find this inclusion appalling. Tobacco consumption amounts to a world-wide health disaster. And while tobacco has been historically important, coca has been historically important to the Andean peoples. But don't expect to see coca featured in an American-made game. The argument against coca would be a moral one - despite its historical correctness. No doubt Bill O'reilly or Bill "high roller" Bennett would complain that Firaxis is promoting drug use and should "think of the children" if coca found its way into the game. (BTW Andeans who use coca for personal consuption do not use it in the form of cocaine or crack. They chew the leaves or make tea. This is the difference between drinking a beer and drinking Everclear.)

If Firaxis is going to include tobacco, I recommend some of the following.

* Reflect the actual health costs of tobacco by cutting productivity or taking a financial hit from each city that gets the happiness benefit.

* Have tobacco expire in the modern age.

* Tobacco selling countries could take a reputation hit or have to pay a tax.

These things would reflect the costs imposed by tobacco and make tobacco trade a real trade-off.

	15-05-2003 21:44									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

That's like suggesting that if your civ has even one bonus cattle resource, then all your units become fat and immobilized. All those burgers, donchaknow? And let's scrap oil for all the smog, uranium for all the radiation, and saltpeter for the wars. Yeah!

On the other hand, a new resource called 'political correctness' will be abundant and never depletes - and strangely, it won't really make your citizens any happier.

	15-05-2003 21:46									#3
	Suffering from ads?

"Exotic birds" is also another case of animal mistreatment it shouldnt raise happiness. "Cattle" should lower health causing population decrease because of the negative effects of milk.
and exotic birds, cattle, and elephants should each have movies showing the slaughter or imprisonment of these animals

	15-05-2003 21:50									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Templar you need to loosen up, it is a game.
Most of the stuff you list as penalties does not exist in life. Tobacco is still legal so why any rep issues?
Understand I am an ex smoker and can not stand to be around smoke and my younger brother and mother died from smoking last year, but it was their choice. It should reflect the historical truth. It has been sought after by people and governments for centuries and they still make money off of it. Virgina and other states, still love it. That is the truth.

	15-05-2003 21:51									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by brianshapiro "Exotic birds" is also another case of animal mistreatment it shouldnt raise happiness. "Cattle" should lower health causing population decrease because of the negative effects of milk. and exotic birds, cattle, and elephants should each have movies showing the slaughter or imprisonment of these animals

Can you guys leave your Nazism out of games please.

	15-05-2003 21:51									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu That's like suggesting that if your civ has even one bonus cattle resource, then all your units become fat and immobilized. All those burgers, donchaknow? And let's scrap oil for all the smog, uranium for all the radiation, and saltpeter for the wars. Yeah! On the other hand, a new resource called 'political correctness' will be abundant and never depletes - and strangely, it won't really make your citizens any happier.

Political correctness does not have everything to do with this. The cost of oil and coal are reflected in global warming. The cost of uranium is reflected in nuclear warfare and nuclear plants occassionally going three-mile island. I primarily saying that the costs of tobacco should be reflected.

As for political correctness, if you think cannibas or coca is missing from the game for any other reason then political correctness you're fooling yourself. But the fact is, in this day and age, there is something shady about engaging in tobacco trade - and a bit hypocrital to include one drug trade and not the other.

	15-05-2003 21:52									#7
	Tired of ads?

... yeah and coal must doing some bad things to...(ironic)

If we can, in civilization i'll be fascism and force all my citizen to smoke!!!!
Smoke Or Die... hahahahahhaha
===
hehehe just kidding.
You seem like the man who just stop smoking?
===

Hey In Canada Marijuhana will be decriminalize... and the american government are not very happy with that, how many dollars they throw to fight against the cannabis and us in canada will be decriminalise it!!Oh yeah baby
Maybe in five years we'll be able to buy legally marijuhana in Canada...

Oh yeah I forget.. i rarely smoke cannabis... so I dont really care! hahahahha

Last edited by cronos_qc on 15-05-2003 at 22:02

	15-05-2003 21:53									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well the is one good reason. It is not legal to trade in cannibas and coke.

	15-05-2003 22:00									#9
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Templar you need to loosen up, it is a game. Most of the stuff you list as penalties does not exist in life. Tobacco is still legal so why any rep issues? Understand I am an ex smoker and can not stand to be around smoke and my younger brother and mother died from smoking last year, but it was their choice. It should reflect the historical truth. It has been sought after by people and governments for centuries and they still make money off of it. Virgina and other states, still love it. That is the truth.

With respect to the rep stuff, the current treaty to ban tobacco advertising in the world is being opposed by - you guessed it - the United States, a primary producer of tobacco. And yes, it is causing something of a real world rep hit.

As for historical truth, we could include the slave trade (not the somewhat silent treatment of slavery with pop rushing and "guest workers" - actual selling of people in trade routes like other resources), drug trades, the modern sex trade, etc.

Of course the game does have mass murder and genocide (wiping out cities doesn't seem to produce refugees ...), so maybe complaining about tobacco is a bit much. Still, it should have a cost to the player. Even mass murder earns a rep hit in this game.

	15-05-2003 22:07									#10
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Well the is one good reason. It is not legal to trade in cannibas and coke.

Cannibas is legal in the Netherlands, and Canada is about to decriminalize possession. Also, coca leaves (in non-cocaine or crack forms) are legal in Andean countries (Peru, Bolivia, and Ecuador). In fact, when you first get to Cuzco, they give you coca tea to help you adapt to the altitude.

But if you want to be historically correct, coca cannibas, opiates etc. did not become illegal in the US until the 1920s. So in the span of history, prohibition occupies a short period. Absynthe, laudnum (contained opiates), and other concoctions were quite popular even in the 1800s. (In fact, if you go to New Orleans, you will see at least two absynthe bars in the French Quarter - I mean "Freedom Quarter". They no longer sell absynthe of course - but there they are in public).

	15-05-2003 22:17									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Now this sounds interesting:

"Civ fans will discover intriguing new civilizations, units, wonders, technologies, and abilities to help them triumph in eight professionally designed conquests throughout history."

I wonder if that means we'll be getting some of the unit abilities we had in Alpha Centauri, defence bonuses for aircraft attacks etc. That would be cool!

	15-05-2003 22:23									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by cronos_qc Hey In Canada Marijuhana will be decriminalize... and the american government are not very happy with that, how many dollars they throw to fight against the cannabis and us in canada will be decriminalise it!!Oh yeah baby

And just think of all the tourist dollars that it will bring in from the US.

	15-05-2003 22:26									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by cronos_qc how many dollars they throw to fight against the cannabis and us in canada will be decriminalise it!

I just read an article quoting $35 billion.

quote: Maybe in five years we'll be able to buy legally marijuhana in Canada...

Good luck on that one. There's international treaties that will have to be renegotiated first. That always takes a long time. Maybe in 20 years, certainly not 5.

	15-05-2003 22:30									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Good luck on that one. There's international treaties that will have to be renegotiated first. That always takes a long time. Maybe in 20 years, certainly not 5.

Gee Willem, haven't you heard about the new Dubya method of treaty renegotiation? You just pull out unilaterally.

	15-05-2003 22:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Cannibas is legal in the Netherlands...

Not it's not, international treaties won't allow it. They merely decriminalized simple possession and turned a blind eye to certain forms of distribution, like the cafes. However according to the law, it's still illegal to sell or produce.

	15-05-2003 22:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Gee Willem, haven't you heard about the new Dubya method of treaty renegotiation? You just pull out unilaterally.

Yeah right, Dubya advocating the legalization of marijuana.

There'll have to be a cold day in hell first!

	15-05-2003 23:29									#17
	Got spare money?

They already have wine, what's wrong with tobacco?

	16-05-2003 00:19									#18
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True. Wine (alcohol) is equally a health risk as tobacco. I loathe tobacco, but I think it should be included given its history as a cash crop.

	16-05-2003 01:07									#19
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Edit: nevermind.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 16-05-2003 at 01:29

	16-05-2003 01:28									#20
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I'm just waiting for Firaxis to put Barley as a luxury resource, my CIV deserves a beer!!

Last edited by Mad Bomber on 16-05-2003 at 01:36

	16-05-2003 01:33									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This thread is complete OT bullshit.

cheers

	16-05-2003 01:35									#22
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Excellent point Arrian!

Sorry for editing it out. I just decided I don't want to jump into this discussion.

-Arrian

	16-05-2003 01:35									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

After reading this thread I was suddenly struck with the revelation that due to my love of sending out fleets of privateers I am actually advocating PIRACY! Shame on me.
Good heavens--CIV is a game, after all. It doesn't have to (and sure doesn't) mirror the World.

	16-05-2003 01:38									#24
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by The Templar I primarily saying that the costs of tobacco should be reflected.

Hmm ... wait ... I've got it! Civs that have tobacco as a resource should have units which get wheezy and fatigued in battle (animated by them bending over holding their knees and breathing hard), and when moving units long distances they should lose a turn to either take a smoke or catch their breath.

Tobacco as a resource is fine. Its historically accurate, a HUGE international resource, legal, and since the icons will probably be little pipes, it will look cool as well.

Your moral solution: Don't build roads to it. Don't trade for it.

	16-05-2003 01:39									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Sorry for editing it out. I just decided I don't want to jump into this discussion. -Arrian

A wise decision on your part.

	16-05-2003 01:48									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Azeem True. Wine (alcohol) is equally a health risk as tobacco. I loathe tobacco, but I think it should be included given its history as a cash crop.

Red wine is good for your health. If tobacco is in, it should have a cost reflected in reduced productivity or increased medical costs.

	16-05-2003 01:50									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Rob, excellent point.

	16-05-2003 01:57									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by The Templar Red wine is good for your health. If tobacco is in, it should have a cost reflected in reduced productivity or increased medical costs.

It's the conservative chemicals in the wine that are good for the heart.

If you only eat the conservative chemicals you get the same positive effect as if you were drinking wine.

Maybe a "wine conservative chemical" resource?

cheers

	16-05-2003 02:02									#29
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal the icons will probably be little pipes

cheers

	16-05-2003 02:20									#30
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i already use tobacco as a luxury and I gave it a -1 shield to reflect decreased production from cancer deaths. the penalty only takes effect if its a bonus grassland or the tile is mined. i do wish that luxuries could become obsolete. I made tobacco available with industrialization and would like to make it obsolete with longevity or some health tech. (same concept would be nice for other luxuries).