17-05-2003 00:24									#31
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quote: That's pretty much what i'm saying. Try to include as many settlements as possible while maintaining a reasonable border. As for the Gaza strip, the settlements inside have to go, but there are some settlements on the north of it, adjacent to Israel proper, there is no reason to remove them.

We are in agreement accept for the fact that I would cut into the settlements more then you. There is no reason to remove northern Gazan settlements? Why, because you put them right up against the border of course so that later on you could say there is no reason to remove them. I have no problem if contiguous and equally valuable land can be offered but I highly doubt it. Most of the land contiguous with the West Bank and Gaza that hasn't been developed in some way is desert. Either someone is going to be removed from their land or the palestinians are going to be offered sand.

quote: Well, then I guess you will support it when the settlers start building tens of thousands of illegal homes every year to accomodate themselves, just like the Arabs in E. Jerusalem, the Beduins in the Negev and some Arabs in the Galilee do.

These illegal homes are illegal because the Israeli government made them so, and placed limits on "natural growth". When they find so-called illegal homes they bulldoze them. I don't think the settlers should be much of a problem if the Israeli gov could stand up to Jews as easily as it could stand up to Palestinians.

quote: The "worse" thing that can happen is removal of all the benefits for settlers, and it wont change much.

WTF, why is this the worst thing? The entitlements for settlers are pretty damn unpopular in Israel right now unless you're a settler, please. It wouldn't change a thing really? Because economic incentives never have anything to do with choosing where to live? Sure, I'll choose to live in a place very near to people who hate me, near to people who support my being shot while driving on the highway or by infiltrators, it doesn't help at all that the house is cheap. Nah.

The cost of these incentives is pretty high, plus the cost of added security needs so I don't think the price will be as high as you say. Plus the people who do not take the incentives to leave the settlements will be well aware that the invitable evacuation of the settlement will lower the value of their homes considerably, which will be evident in the final compensation offered to them.

	17-05-2003 00:29									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor quote: Democratic Culture - Over the last few years there has been a significant decline in the Jewish population's support of democratic norms on all levels: general support of the democratic system, support of specific democratic values, and support for equal rights for the Arab minority. - The April 2003 survey returned a twenty year low in the percentage of support for the statement that democracy is the best form of government. Only 77% of the Jewish population thought it was. - Of 32 countries for which there was data, Israel and Poland ranked lowest in the percentage of citizens (Arabs and Jews) who agreed with the statement that democracy is a desirable form of government. - Israel (together with Mexico, India and Romania) is only one of 4 countries out of 31 in which the population is of the opinion that "strong leaders can be more useful to the state than all the deliberations and laws." - As of 2003, more than half (53%) of the Jews in Israel state out loud that they are against full equality for the Arabs; 77% say there should be a Jewish majority on crucial political decisions; less than a third (31%) support having Arab political parties in the government; and the majority (57%) think that the Arabs should be encouraged to emigrate. On all issues there was a dramatic decline in support for democratic norms, compared to 1999. - Not only is the Jewish population unsupportive of equality for Arab citizens, half of them do not acknowledge that equality doesn't exist in practice; 49% disagree that Israeli Arabs are discriminated against compared with Jews.

They seem to have forgotten their own history

	17-05-2003 00:39									#33
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 We are in agreement accept for the fact that I would cut into the settlements more then you. There is no reason to remove northern Gazan settlements? Why, because you put them right up against the border of course so that later on you could say there is no reason to remove them. I have no problem if contiguous and equally valuable land can be offered but I highly doubt it. Most of the land contiguous with the West Bank and Gaza that hasn't been developed in some way is desert. Either someone is going to be removed from their land or the palestinians are going to be offered sand.

Because as I said earlier, removing settlements is going to be almost impossible. That's why a formula needs to be found to remove as few of them as possible.
The settlements in the north of the Gaza strip pose no problems to Palestinian contiguity and therefore they should not be removed. The settlements in the middle of the Gaza strip are a major problem and they should be removed.

That sand they are going to be offered is their last refuge from the enormous over-population problem in the Gaza strip. It's one of the most densest areas in the world with ~3500 people living in every square kilometre, and that doesnt account for the land taken by settlements and IDF bases(so the number is close to 5000).
It is not Manhatten with it's high-rises, but a poverty stricken area filled with refugee camps.
Add to all this a 4% growth rate(50% population increase every decade) and they are screwed, a real time bomb.

Desert of grasslands, the Halutza sands south of Gaza(offered in Camp David by Barak in exchange for the settlement block in Judea&Samaria) are more helpful to the Pals than then hills of Judea.

quote: These illegal homes are illegal because the Israeli government made them so, and placed limits on "natural growth". When they find so-called illegal homes they bulldoze them. I don't think the settlers should be much of a problem if the Israeli gov could stand up to Jews as easily as it could stand up to Palestinians.

What's the dispute? We both agree that limiting natural growth is not practical.

quote: WTF, why is this the worst thing? The entitlements for settlers are pretty damn unpopular in Israel right now unless you're a settler, please. It wouldn't change a thing really? Because economic incentives never have anything to do with choosing where to live? Sure, I'll choose to live in a place very near to people who hate me, near to people who support my being shot while driving on the highway or by infiltrators, it doesn't help at all that the house is cheap. Nah. The cost of these incentives is pretty high, plus the cost of added security needs so I don't think the price will be as high as you say. Plus the people who do not take the incentives to leave the settlements will be well aware that the invitable evacuation of the settlement will lower the value of their homes considerably, which will be evident in the final compensation offered to them.

It's the worst thing in the sense that it's the worst that can be done by the goverment to the settlers.

Many of the settlers live there because of the cheap prices but still lots and lots of them are there because of ideology and htat's why removing the incentives wont change a thing. The ideological settlers will stay.

	17-05-2003 00:52									#34
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Dont care how you do it, just make it happen!

It is bickering and wasting of resources on fighting small problems like this that will and has hold back peace negotiations. Just look at Northern Ireland.

People should stop wasting time in these small egotistical concerns that have been blown out of proportion by all concerned and start tackling the real issues of making the two states work together constitutionally, and for the future, because it is, after all, the future that will judge this, and judge whether people have gone about this responsibly, or with inertia and unreasonability.

	17-05-2003 00:54									#35
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by the way....

how does one reformat the text to show that it is a quote?

	17-05-2003 01:00									#36
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If I understand the Road Map, this is Olso II. It grants Palestine a state, removes the settlers and only then are the tough issues addressed, like the RoR. IIRC, this issue blew up Camp David and precipitated the current war.

It seems obvious to me that Israel should make no concessions until the hard issues are resolved.

	17-05-2003 01:13									#37
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Uh, Halutza is a desert not a grassland and if you look it up on google you'll find that Sharon recently approved a number of settlements in the area.

As far as I can tell the northern Gazan settlements have a little more than 1000 people living in them. There is little reason to spare them even if they are bordering Israel. The largest Israeli settlement in Gaza is Neve Dekalim which is in the south close to the coast, with 2,280 people and this settlement will surely have to go http://www.fmep.org/database/gaza.html. Because a settlement is bordering Israel is not a reason in itself to allow it to survive, as the land is Palestinian to begin with.

quote: What's the dispute? We both agree that limiting natural growth is not practical.

You misunderstood, Israel has been somewhat successful in limiting Palestinian growth, moreso in areas of higher priority like Jerusalem. As the Palestinians are much more populous and have a far higher birth rate then settlers so I doubt the settlers would prove as much of a problem. It is highly practical when it suits your political objectives.

quote: It's the worst thing in the sense that it's the worst that can be done by the goverment to the settlers. Many of the settlers live there because of the cheap prices but still lots and lots of them are there because of ideology and htat's why removing the incentives wont change a thing. The ideological settlers will stay.

Most settlers are there because of cheap prices. Most of the larger settlement blocks are suburban neighbourhoods where inhabitants can almost imagine themselves to be in normal neighbourhoods and completely forget about the illegality or legality of settlements. Whats interesting is that most of the truly ideological settlers that you speak of live in the more isolated settlements that you say have to go anyway. But I'm sure you know that because I assume you live in Israel.

	17-05-2003 03:46									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Colon What boycott? I suspect the reason trade between both countries has dropped is because the lion share of that trade is in diamonds (more specifically between Antwerp and Tel Aviv), and the diamond business has been suffering in general. I could try to look up some figures if you want. Besides, the Jewish community in Antwerp has a large stake in the diamond business, and I don't think they'd boycott your country either.

hi ,

if you would open your eyes in antwerp you would understand , .....

the diamond sector is very hard hit , many offices are now vacant in the pelicaan straat , .....

figures , here they are > http://www.nbb.be/belgostat/GlobalD...treeview&Lang=E

and no , we dont yet have developed the tendency like the belgians to boycott one and another , ....

at least we dont have 405 000 unemployed people yet , .....

have a nice day

	17-05-2003 05:19									#39
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quote: hi , if you would open your eyes in antwerp you would understand , ..... the diamond sector is very hard hit , many offices are now vacant in the pelicaan straat , .....

Understand what? That the entire neighbourhood around the central station has been a slum for ages? I don't need you to know that and I don't have the slightest clue why you're bringing to that up boy.

quote: figures , here they are > http://www.nbb.be/belgostat/GlobalD...treeview&Lang=E

That's very good of you, have you found data about the composition of the Belgian/Israeli trade in there?

quote: and no , we dont yet have developed the tendency like the belgians to boycott one and another , ....

We have also been been boycotting the US. Coke consumption has already dropped by several tenths of a percent, which crashed our stock market and caused a severe recession.

quote: at least we dont have 405 000 unemployed people yet , .....

Want to start a discussion about the Belgian labour market? You could add half a million people using a broader definition of what constitutes an unemployed person. (older unemployed that have been written out, people on early retirement etc) Our employment rate is amongst the lowest in the industrialised world and in several regions in Wallonia there's an unemployment of about 25%.

I'm sure that's fascinating stuff for you.

Go troll someone else silly kid.

	17-05-2003 05:32									#40
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quote: Originally posted by elijah by the way.... how does one reformat the text to show that it is a quote?

[ q ] at the beginning
[ /q ] at the end (remove the spaces between the brackets and the letter)

	17-05-2003 05:44									#41
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quote: That's very good of you, have you found data about the composition of the Belgian/Israeli trade in there?

Yes, there is a statistic :

IMPORTS FROM ISRAEL - millions of Euros

Feb 2003 : 135.4
Jan 2003 : 139.0
Dec 2002 : 166.1
Nov 2002 : 195.5
Oct 2002 : 210.3
Sep 2002 : 167.5
Aug 2002 : 120.1
Jul 2002 : 155.5
Jun 2002 : 189.6
May 2002 : 244.8
Apr 2002 : 193.9
Mar 2002 : 173.0
Feb 2002 : 202.1

EXPORTS TO ISRAEL - millions of Euros

Feb 2003 : 200.7
Jan 2003 : 201.5
Dec 2002 : 226.8
Nov 2002 : 209.7
Oct 2002 : 291.4
Sep 2002 : 207.3
Aug 2002 : 189.1
Jul 2002 : 278.2
Jun 2002 : 286.3
May 2002 : 303.6
Apr 2002 : 267.9
Mar 2002 : 270.4
Feb 2002 : 288.0

I don't know what these stats prove however. It just shows trade between the two countries has generally reduced, but it seems Belgian imports have reduced a bit more significantly than Belgian exports.

	17-05-2003 06:09									#42
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And in the same time period:

Belgian imports according to the Harmonised System

Natural or cultured pearls, precious or semi-precious stones, precious metals; imitation jewellery; coins

2002-02 1,175.7
....
2003-02 938.0

At least a chunk of that is from Israel and as I already said, the diamond business has been suffering in general.

	17-05-2003 09:47									#43
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People, democracy is not import/export amount. It's freedom. And as long as we have no freedom of faith we have no democracy

	17-05-2003 14:54									#44
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Elijah: you have an unrealistic pov. " I don't care how you do it, just do it"?

	17-05-2003 15:07									#45
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quote: Originally posted by muxec People, democracy is not import/export amount. It's freedom. And as long as we have no freedom of faith we have no democracy

You have freedom of faith, you dont have freedom from religion.

	17-05-2003 15:07									#46
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quote: Originally posted by elijah 50 (palestinians in Israel) 200 (colonialism impacting on the Muslim world) 800 (the crusades) Let us not forget the concept of Arab brotherhood. When one attacks one Muslim, it is interpreted as an attack on all Muslims. Dont get bogged down in the issues of nationstates, some cultural forces have the power to transcend them.

Remind me...which crusade was fought at the gates of Vienna?

	17-05-2003 15:19									#47
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Eli: which is still wrong. ( I wouldn't have freedom of faith as well. )

	17-05-2003 17:51									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Understand what? That the entire neighbourhood around the central station has been a slum for ages? I don't need you to know that and I don't have the slightest clue why you're bringing to that up boy. That's very good of you, have you found data about the composition of the Belgian/Israeli trade in there? We have also been been boycotting the US. Coke consumption has already dropped by several tenths of a percent, which crashed our stock market and caused a severe recession. Want to start a discussion about the Belgian labour market? You could add half a million people using a broader definition of what constitutes an unemployed person. (older unemployed that have been written out, people on early retirement etc) Our employment rate is amongst the lowest in the industrialised world and in several regions in Wallonia there's an unemployment of about 25%. I'm sure that's fascinating stuff for you. Go troll someone else silly kid.

hi ,

als ge misschien eens een gazet openslaat , ...... of naar den brt of vtm ziet , .....

the fact remains that the belgian local and regional governments boycott Israeli products , ....

not only when it comes to buying ground coffee or juice , also when it comes to security software , ....

the biggest proof , the law suit one pierre galand tried to launch at belgacom and skynet when they made a multi million dollar deal with esafe , ....

the area around the station has nothing to do with the offices that are standing empty due to the fact that more and more diamond traders are leaving , .....

( bewijs bij kamer van koophandel )

not to mention about the fact that for example keter plastics are being put out of offices at an enormous rate , .....

sabca can not renew its contract under pressure from one eddy boutmans , not to mention about the stunt he did last year on the second of november in antwerp , ....

while we are at it , belgium prits books thanks to one eddy boutmans ( the secretary of aide and foreign development ) that dont show israel on its world map , .... and palestine runs from north libanon to the nile , .... (!)

saying that your unemployment rate is amongst the lowest is not true , 10 million people , 2.7 in the work force and 405 000 are unemployed , ......

cijfers bij de national bank van belgie

the fact remains that we are all in a bad state thanks to a high dollar and thanks to the work of some politicians , ......

put the fear of terror and the war in iraq with it and you get what is there today , ...

oh ja , als je wilt kunnen we eens afspreken , dan zal ik zwart op wit de bewijzen laten zien , ..... ben geregeld in antwerpen

have a nice day & een goed weekend

	17-05-2003 18:01									#49
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hi ,

spiffor if you send a pm i shall fax you the complete overview , ....

imports to belgium

98 mo1 126
99 mo1 105
00 > 189
01 > 216
02 > 195
03> 139 or a drop of 28.7%

export to Israel

98 > 205
99 > 194
00 > 272
01 > 245
02 > 201 or a drop of 19%

all numbers in millions of euro's

okay , fine no problem there , its only one month , but then the second and third month came , they prove the same , .......

the numbers of the trade unions , the local trade chamber , etc , ....

and this in turn hurts both nations , why , taxes , revenue on sales , ......

one of the reason that the prime minister of belgium told us at a meeting in antwerp at the 8th of may that he shall see what he can do to stop this , ....

in one area of belgium the limburg more and more contracts are not renewed for the cutting of diamonds , ....

well at least our little yom haatzmaout had a large turnout

have a nice day

	17-05-2003 18:38									#50
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quote: You have freedom of faith, you dont have freedom from religion.

Freedom of faith is also freedom of religion. I hope that Shinui party will do order in the state.

	17-05-2003 18:40									#51
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Fact, that Belgium is our strategical enemy because their international human right court is sold to arabs

	17-05-2003 18:48									#53
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quote: Originally posted by muxec Fact, that Belgium is our strategical enemy because their international human right court is sold to arabs

hi ,

not only that , the yasser trial is on hold , ....

and now they done it again , ..... the filed one against the US of A , ....

they have nothing better to do , ......

the PM of belgium has only recently been able to form a senate investigation to the acts and deeds of what happend in belgium in WWII , .... only know shall we able to get compensation of property and human live , ....

its 2003 , the war stopped in 45 , ......

we can file know till the end of the month , but when are we going to see our money , ......

btw , there is great book about the role of the police in antwerp written by a belgian jew who run away a couple years ago to Haifa , ...... can you blame him

have a nice day

	17-05-2003 18:51									#54
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quote: Originally posted by muxec Freedom of faith is also freedom of religion. I hope that Shinui party will do order in the state.

hi ,

well that remains to be seen , its a bit to early but they do a good job , .....

have a nice day

one can only wonder why so many of us voted for them , .....

	17-05-2003 19:10									#55
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , not only that , the yasser trial is on hold , ....

But wasn´t on the other hand the Trial against Sharon (for the crimes at Sabra and Shatila) also put on hold?

(because the belgian court was restricted to only pursue crimes outside of Belgium, if they happen within countries which don´t possess a democracy [and AFAIK Israel is AFAIK considered to be a Democracy])

	17-05-2003 19:20									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST But wasn´t on the other hand the Trial against Sharon (for the crimes at Sabra and Shatila) also put on hold? (because the belgian court was restricted to only pursue crimes outside of Belgium, if they happen within countries which don´t possess a democracy [and AFAIK Israel is AFAIK considered to be a Democracy])

hi ,

nope there was a verdict , ....

what is intresting is that before the Sharon there was allread a complaint against yasser and some others , nothing happend , the it was Sharon , the yasser case got "dismissed" , a new one was filled against yasser , ....

now the filed one against every single US commander in the gulf above two star gen , .....

but dont worry , bush and blair and some other are on the "to do list" , .....


the Sharon trial was nothing more then a pathetic attempt of political justice , ..... not real justice , ......

what is also intresting is that in brussels , nota bene in walking distance of the courthouse for years there are Iranian victims of chemical weapons used by one saddam , ......

they have tried to put the bull murder in Israel's shoes after they failed to solved that , ......

but at the same time they gave harbor to one wouter basson , the head of the south african biological and chemical weapons program , .....

they spit out negative critisism on the Israeli high court and judicail system , .... yet they fail themselfs , ......

have a nice day

	17-05-2003 21:17									#57
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quote: hi , als ge misschien eens een gazet openslaat , ...... of naar den brt of vtm ziet , .....

Televised news coverage is crap. I read De Morgen and the Financieel Economische Tijd, and sometimes the Standaard.

quote: the fact remains that the belgian local and regional governments boycott Israeli products , .... not only when it comes to buying ground coffee or juice , also when it comes to security software , ....

Sorry, I know nothing about the coffee and juice situation you mention. Names? Source? And how many euros are we talking about here?

Did a check on the site of the statistical agency of Israel, around 3/4th of the Israeli/Belgian trade consists of diamonds.

quote: the biggest proof , the law suit one pierre galand tried to launch at belgacom and skynet when they made a multi million dollar deal with esafe , ....

So? He didn’t had the slightest chance of success and Belgacom still bought eSafe’s software. (and Belgacom is half state owned - doesn’t it occur to you that this slightly contradicts your claim about a boycott?)

And since that you know so much about Belgium, you might have noticed that Garland is quite leftwing.

quote: the area around the station has nothing to do with the offices that are standing empty due to the fact that more and more diamond traders are leaving , ..... ( bewijs bij kamer van koophandel )

I don’t understand what point you are making there. First of all, the Pelikaanstraat isn’t the centre of the diamond trade in Antwerp, streets like the Hovenierstraat and the Rijfstraat are. Secondly, the area has been problematic for ages, especially after the Rex cinema complex was shut down, so little connection with the recent conflict. And thirdly are you claiming the Antwerp diamond community is boycotting Israel? In that case, you might want to explain what the Jews and the Indians, who have such a large sway over it, are doing it for.

quote: not to mention about the fact that for example keter plastics are being put out of offices at an enormous rate , .....

Interesting… what are keter plastics?

quote: sabca can not renew its contract under pressure from one eddy boutmans , not to mention about the stunt he did last year on the second of november in antwerp , .... while we are at it , belgium prits books thanks to one eddy boutmans ( the secretary of aide and foreign development ) that dont show israel on its world map , .... and palestine runs from north libanon to the nile , .... (!)

Sabca cannot renew its contract with whom? About what?

Eddy Boutmans can pressure and whine all he likes, few take him or the other greens serious anymore either how.

quote: saying that your unemployment rate is amongst the lowest is not true , 10 million people , 2.7 in the work force and 405 000 are unemployed , ...... cijfers bij de national bank van belgie

I said “employment rate”, without the un- in front. And it is amongst the lowest in the industrialised world. Glad we can agree our labour market is ****ed up although I still don’t get why you brought that up.

quote: the fact remains that we are all in a bad state thanks to a high dollar and thanks to the work of some politicians , ......

I’d rather say you’re in bad state because it’s hard to set up business without the risk it will be blown up the day after by some Palestinian nutcase. And regularly shutting out several hundreds of thousands of labourers probably didn’t do a lot of good to your economy either. (regardless of security concerns)

quote: put the fear of terror and the war in iraq with it and you get what is there today , ...

Should Belgium have opposed the war more strongly then?

quote: imports to belgium 98 mo1 126 99 mo1 105 00 > 189 01 > 216 02 > 195 03> 139 or a drop of 28.7% export to Israel 98 > 205 99 > 194 00 > 272 01 > 245 02 > 201 or a drop of 19% all numbers in millions of euro's

Why don’t you go and take a look here: www.cbs.gov.il/fr_trade/d4t6.htm

Both Imports and exports grew by a double digit figure in 2002 compared to 2001, exports to Belgium also grew in the first 3 months of 2003, although imports from Belgium dropped off slightly. And note how much of that is in diamonds: trade in other goods simply is too tiny to seriously affect your economy.

The case against Sharon isn’t on hold, it has been dismissed. And since you know so much about Belgium, you probably know the genocide law was implemented to punish protractors of the Rwandan genocide, who were living in Belgium. Legislators couldn’t foresee that Palestinians would use this law to file a case against Sharon. (or Yarafat and others)

	17-05-2003 21:30									#58
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quote: Interesting… what are keter plastics?

an Israeli plastics manufacturer. But I thought that bussiness was still going good. They're still shipping a lot to Antwerp, AFAIK.

	17-05-2003 21:43									#59
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Could someone explain how the majority of Jews in Israel, a people who, more than anyone else one would expect would realise the value of equality and the fallacy of persecution, are now in favour of unequal rights for the Arabs, and guilty of something of a cultural stereotype of that people.

As a Jew in Britain, I find it perplexing. This nation has had a long history of terrorism, the troubles in Northern Island, yet even on NI, and the vast majority of the mainland, there hasnt been animosity between catholics and other faiths, even though the IRA attacked Britain many times. The places where there was animosity are a few troublesome areas in a few counties of NI, far from the entire nation!

This is surely another obstacle that must be overcome for there to be peace. Objectivity, and the encouragement of objectivity amongst the Israelis and other Jewish circles, is a good way to solve this. Lets engage our theories of mind here people!

	17-05-2003 21:52									#60
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The amount of violence the IRA has actually carried out in Britian is minute to what has been going on here in the last 3 years. With the participation of some individuals of the arab population in terrorism, people started to mistrust the arab population. It's sad, really, because it's unfair generalization.

Their inequality, is a fact, but is manifested much more than it should be because of shoddy politicians that they elect themselves on basis of tribal and factional loyalty.