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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:28
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http://www.idi.org.il/english/artic...2ccc5763e07d294
Interesting read.
Some snippets :
The support for encouraging Arab emigration and requiring a Jewish majority for crucial decisions is surprisingly high.
The trust in the prime minister had fallen dramatically from 70% to 53%. The trust in the IDF had also significantly fallen from 97% to 83%, but still is very high.
The Labor Union got a major jump from 31% to 55%.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:28
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both. The world market, and the high-tech sector are a mess. our PPP per capita dropped to 15,500 USD from ~19,500 USD.
Our financial situation is a mess, because unemployment has risen, so you have to pay more welfare, and companies and individuals are making less money, that is less taxes.
So now, the government wants to make a severe cut in the government spending, which will include cutting the salaries of government workers, that is without the agreement of the tradeunion, and against the agreements with them.
So now, the public sector is on strike. No airtraffic, no ports, no mail, no busses, hospitals are partially functioning, electric utilities are not fixing malfunctions, etc.
But I don't trust the trade union. Their leader is a bastard, which serves the intersts of trade union bosses. Sadly, the guy on the other side of the ring is the Finance Minister, which is a ***** of big bussiness.
I am a political homeless in Israel.
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
I didn't know Israel's economy was in trouble... Does it have to do with EU's problems, or are your economic problems caused by an internal situation ? |
hi ,
yes and no , we have patton on one hand who is calling for a boycott and who is doing with his secretary emma whatever he can to make sure Israeli produts are kept out of the market , ..... going from grape juice and wine to diamonds and white gold , from keter plastics to IMI bullet proof vests , ..... 
belgium that is the main EU tradepartner with us is to thank for that , ..... again the export and inport has fallen , ..... but they forget one thing , one we have more trade with them then all the arab countries combined , two they cut themselfs with this , .... why , simple , less money means less taxes , ..... 
down with the belgian and eu boycott people 
the position of the dollar versus the euro has also made it hard , together with the global down trend , ....
but things are looking better , one step at the time , ..... 
have a nice day made in Eretz Israel
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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I think the way to stop the terrorism is to give the arabs and jews equal rights. The Israelis as the developed nation should take the lead in this, instead of engaging in a ***-for-tat escalation of a pointless war, with pointless bloodshed.
The issues and the reasoning behind each side doing what first, are just small little insignificant details. The truth is that this war is good for no-one but arms manufacturers. Lets end it by whatever means necessary, even if that means giving the Palestinians a state in Gaza and the West Bank, and withdrawing Jewish settlements (I visited one 2 years ago, its more like a castle than a society, I got the impression that it was partly there to antagonise the Arabs, it certainly was no place to bring up children...).
Part of the Zionist philosophy is that the Jews will return in PEACE to their biblical homeland, and it is not much of a leap of the imagination to say that this philosophy requires that peace be maintained if at all possible once a state has been established. A valid Palestinian nation is a good way of doing this.
If this means banging the Israeli and Palestinian governments heads together, then so be it, as this is for the future of the region, and international stability. It is too important to get caught up in pathetic issues of pride and honour.
The Israelis should bare in mind that they are the senior partners in this situation, they are a state, richer and better armed than the Palestinians, and more controlled.
The Arabs resort to terrorism not because of some inherrent hatred of the Jews, or because of some irrational disdain towards Western civilisation. They, like all terrorists, do it because they have felt oppressed. I would say that actual oppresion, and the perception of oppression are the same thing to the victim, and certainly one can see by any definition that the Palestinians and Arabs in general, have been oppressed by the West for 50, 200, 800 years.
They are at a tactical disadvantage, and are desperate, in agony as a people, so we should not be suprised if we become victim to their attacks.
I am not for one second justifying their actions, terrorism is abhorrent to me.
I find murder to be morally wrong, and as much as I'd like to see things achieved, I can only use the legitimate means available to me, like writing, speaking, art, voting etc. My opinions are subjective so I cannot justify forcing that onto another subjective viewpoint, by killing people.
However, it would appear that I understand terrorism, unlike the people who seem to think that a knee-jerk, military reaction, accompanied by unhelpful propaganda, is appropriate.
As a Jew, I am perhaps more familiar with concepts of Zionism that some others, as I was brought up with its idealogy, as such, I will quote from Israels Declaration of Independence:
The State of Israel will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants [presumably including Arabs]; will be based on the principles of liberty, justice and peace as conceived by the Prophets of Israel; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of religion, race, or sex; will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, education and culture; will safeguard the holy places of all religions; and will loyally uphold the principles of the United Nations Charter [does this include the resolution passed on 1967, calling on Israel to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza after the 6 day war?].
Perhaps Israel should try to return to these noble words, but that is not an immediate concern, lets stop this needless war first.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:28
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Dismantling the settlements(except some small and isolated ones) is simply not practical.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
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The bit about the leader principle is "interesting" coming from Israel.
However, I fundamentally do not disagree. Great leaders can make an enormous difference. All one has to do, to look back in history, is to contrast Julius Caesar with Honorius.
I suspect the people feel this way because of Sharon. Right?
Last edited by Ned on 16-05-2003 at 21:43
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
I suspect the people feel this way because of Sharon. Right? |
Yes. He has this image of a serious grandfather... Lebanon is forgotten.
Comparing to other young and reckless leaders, Sharon is on the top. Peres also gets a lot of support.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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"Dismantling the settlements(except some small and isolated ones) is simply not practical"
True, but it is not impossible. There should certainly not be any more built. Under a Palestinian state, any existing ones would presumably come under the juristiction of that state, unless you going to have a very twisted borderline which the Palestinians will not go for. The settlers would have to be happy with that I would have thought.
I hope that the settlers come to live in peace with the Arabs, but I cant see that happening unless Israel makes concessions.
Whatever way, however painful in the short term, is it desireable to have peace. There is so much bad blood over the decades, which will make it harder, and more painful in the short term to have peace, but no doubt few will disagree when I say it is worth it. It is surely desireable to have Israelis and Palestinians living side by side, in peace and prosperity, as the Declaration of Israeli Independence implies.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
True, but it is not impossible. There should certainly not be any more built. |
I agree, but you cant stop "natural growth" in existing settlements.
quote:
Under a Palestinian state, any existing ones would presumably come under the juristiction of that state, |
Highly unlikely.
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unless you going to have a very twisted borderline which the Palestinians will not go for. The settlers would have to be happy with that I would have thought. |
You can get a reasonable border line while still including ~80% of the settlements. Territory exchange can compensate for the "lost" Palestinian land.
The Gaza strip is very dense, a large area to the south of it that will be given to the Pals in exchange for the settlement blocks in Judea&Samaria will considerably help them.
quote:
I hope that the settlers come to live in peace with the Arabs, but I cant see that happening unless Israel makes concessions. |
Funny. 
quote:
Whatever way, however painful in the short term, is it desireable to have peace. There is so much bad blood over the decades, which will make it harder, and more painful in the short term to have peace, but no doubt few will disagree when I say it is worth it. It is surely desireable to have Israelis and Palestinians living side by side, in peace and prosperity, as the Declaration of Israeli Independence implies. |
I agree, but I still maintain that the only practical solution to the settlements problem is annexing the lands of most of them and giving the Pals some other territory.
Look on it this way.
What people often see on TV, two caravans and five people living there, this is not a settlement. It's an outpost and there are ~75 of them in Judea&Samaria. Evacuating them is not a big problem.
The settlements are different though. Large and small towns, even one city, with villas, small buildings, schools, culture centers, etc.
And 250,000-300,000 Israelis live there.
Even if in the scenario of complete evacuation the only resistance the settlers will offer will be passive, that is they will chain themselves to their homes and will refuse to move... And if someone tries to move them, he'll have to carry them himself.
How many reserve divisions will the IDF have to mobilize to take every one of those 300,000 people, cut their chains, carry them one by one to trucks or something, drive them to Israel proper and make sure they dont come back the next morning?
How many soldiers will refuse such orders?
How many hundreds of thousands of Israelis will go to the streets protesting this?
It wont happen.
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gsmoove23
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quote:
Originally posted by Eli
Dismantling the settlements(except some small and isolated ones) is simply not practical. |
Why is this so? If they were created they can be dismantled.
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Colon
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Antwerp, Colon's Chocolate Canard Country
Jan 1970
time: 06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by panag
hi ,
yes and no , we have patton on one hand who is calling for a boycott and who is doing with his secretary emma whatever he can to make sure Israeli produts are kept out of the market , ..... going from grape juice and wine to diamonds and white gold , from keter plastics to IMI bullet proof vests , .....
belgium that is the main EU tradepartner with us is to thank for that , ..... again the export and inport has fallen , ..... but they forget one thing , one we have more trade with them then all the arab countries combined , two they cut themselfs with this , .... why , simple , less money means less taxes , .....
down with the belgian and eu boycott people
the position of the dollar versus the euro has also made it hard , together with the global down trend , ....
but things are looking better , one step at the time , .....
have a nice day made in Eretz Israel |
What boycott? 
I suspect the reason trade between both countries has dropped is because the lion share of that trade is in diamonds (more specifically between Antwerp and Tel Aviv), and the diamond business has been suffering in general. I could try to look up some figures if you want.
Besides, the Jewish community in Antwerp has a large stake in the diamond business, and I don't think they'd boycott your country either.
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gsmoove23
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Sorry, crosspost, you seem to talk about dismantling as if it can only happen in one fell swoop. It would be much easier to first of all stop the incentives offered for people to move in to these communities. Start offering incentives for people to move OUT of these communities. Slowly phase the settlements out. There is nothing impossible about this, just difficult.
As for "natural growth" of course this could be stopped, its been stopped in the West Bank and Gaza for years, not to mention palestinian areas of Jerusalem.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by gsmoove23
Sorry, crosspost, you seem to talk about dismantling as if it can only happen in one fell swoop. It would be much easier to first of all stop the incentives offered for people to move in to these communities. Start offering incentives for people to move OUT of these communities. Slowly phase the settlements out. There is nothing impossible about this, just difficult. |
And the Palestinian state will sit and wait while the settlers slowly leave?
Besides, many will leave, but a large chunk will still remain and will still make evacuation almost impossible.
Why tearing 300,000 people from their homes? Remove 30,000 and agree on territory exchanges(1:1 ratio), it's a much simpler and easier to implement solution.
quote:
As for "natural growth" of course this could be stopped, its been stopped in the West Bank and Gaza for years, not to mention palestinian areas of Jerusalem. |
As Sharon said to Powell on this issue : "Do you reccomend all the settler women to abort their children?"
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gsmoove23
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quote:
Originally posted by Eli
And the Palestinian state will sit and wait while the settlers slowly leave? |
Uh, do they really have a choice. I don't think any reasonable person would expect a mass exodus so yes. The land could be leased until some deadline is met, same as the Israeli proposal for the land bordering Jordan.
quote:
Besides, many will leave, but a large chunk will still remain and will still make evacuation almost impossible. |
Those who stay will have to be evacuated and sufficiently compensated. Needless to say a good portion of this money will probably be paid by the US and frankly I wouldn't mind at all if it was money spent for a plan that had a reasonable chance of success.
quote:
Why tearing 300,000 people from their homes? Remove 30,000 and agree on territory exchanges(1:1 ratio), it's a much simpler and easier to implement solution. |
I don't suggest getting rid of all the settlements, just all of the settlements in Gaza, all of the isolated WB settlements and a fair bit of the settlement blocks that can create a fairly contiguous state with a somewhat even border. BTW 1:1 land trade is worthless if the land gained is not the least bit comparable to the land lost.
quote:
As Sharon said to Powell on this issue : "Do you reccomend all the settler women to abort their children?" |
This is such utter bs, whats more Sharon would obviously say the same thing to palestinian women in Jerusalem or in the territories before Oslo, as palestinian growth has always been restricted.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by gsmoove23
Uh, do they really have a choice. I don't think any reasonable person would expect a mass exodus so yes. The land could be leased until some deadline is met, same as the Israeli proposal for the land bordering Jordan.
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There will be no mass exodus. The "worse" thing that can happen is removal of all the benefits for settlers, and it wont change much.
Again, 80% of the settlers are there to stay.
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Those who stay will have to be evacuated and sufficiently compensated. Needless to say a good portion of this money will probably be paid by the US and frankly I wouldn't mind at all if it was money spent for a plan that had a reasonable chance of success.
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Let's see... 300,000 people, 60,000 families, 60,000 homes, 150,000$ for every home, plus all the other infustructure. Tens of billions of dollars, not very reasonable.
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I don't suggest getting rid of all the settlements, just all of the settlements in Gaza, all of the isolated WB settlements and a fair bit of the settlement blocks that can create a fairly contiguous state with a somewhat even border. BTW 1:1 land trade is worthless if the land gained is not the least bit comparable to the land lost. |
That's pretty much what i'm saying. Try to include as many settlements as possible while maintaining a reasonable border.
As for the Gaza strip, the settlements inside have to go, but there are some settlements on the north of it, adjacent to Israel proper, there is no reason to remove them.
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This is such utter bs, whats more Sharon would obviously say the same thing to palestinian women in Jerusalem or in the territories before Oslo, as palestinian growth has always been restricted. |
Well, then I guess you will support it when the settlers start building tens of thousands of illegal homes every year to accomodate themselves, just like the Arabs in E. Jerusalem, the Beduins in the Negev and some Arabs in the Galilee do.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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I dont see it as unlikely that a new Palestinian state will incorporate the jewish settlements. If they want to stay, then they will be Palestinian citizens. If they wish to remain Israeli, then they will have to decide to go.
The most logical Palestinian state is for Israel to be restored to pre-1967 borders, thus obeying that UN resolution. I doubt very strongly that the Palestinians will accept anything less, nor would many people in their shoes, but I think that proposition is a reasonable one.
The only other plausible solution would be to give the Palestinians the Sinaii peninsula, call that Palestine, while Israel keeps the North and the West Bank. That wont happen because of the significance of Jerusalem and the desert conditions in much of Sinaii peninsula.
With regards to Jerusalem, both sides want it, and I dont feel that a joint capital will work... not for several years until things calm down a little. Perhaps a good idea would be for Jerusalem to become a city state like the Vatican, it has much religious and historical significance for the three semetic religions, and would help to cut out another potential problem to a lasting peace.
While it is true that the Jewish settlements should not be forced to be closed, the Israelis should accept that a new Palestinian state will incorporate them. There are Arabs in Israel, lets hope that Jews in Palestine will receive better treatment... what I saw when I visited reminds one of apartheid in South Africa... only South Africa didnt get billions of $ per year.
Natural growth is of course going to happen to those Jewish settlements, but hopefully, if they are part of a Palestinian state, they will become integrated into a new community... there is the possibility that one of the sticking points of this conflict becomes a seed of integration and unity.
Hopefully Palestine will give its minorities better treatment, but in any case, anyone who chooses to stay in the settlements would have to accept citizenship of that nation, otherwise, they would choose to move back to Israel.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:28
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You want to incorporate into the radical Palestinian society the most radical Israelis? Good luck.
They dont sit there because they like the view, they sit there to ensure that the land will stay under Israeli control. And they succeeded in this, large chunks of land are (relatively) heavy populated and will probably be not given to the Pals.
Living under Pal sovereignity is completely against their ideals, so the choice of come back to Israel or be Pal citizens is not really giving them any choice but to leave(or be forced to leave), and this, from reasons I stated earlier, is not going to happen.
Also, if anything will go wrong(for example, radicals attacking the settlers) Israel will have to interfere.
The Mossad works days and nights to prevent attacks against Jewish targets around the globe, so if something happens to those ex Israelis who live 20 minutes from Tel Aviv, Israel will have to interfere and it wont end well.
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16-05-2003 17:04
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