24-06-2004 09:27									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

or a CIVIL WAR in New Spain

	25-06-2004 00:38									#62
	Got spare money?

I've just remade the New Spain map in the C3C Editor, but it kind of limits us, because there are only 5 cities (unless players want to play the two "outside forces" that I included--Port Isolation and Elipolis, which would presumably be in a locked alliance with one of the regular cities.

And plus, the cities are packed so tightly, a few would get screwed and only have sea squares, probably. I'll test it.

Would y'all prefer an enlarged map of New Spain? That would allow 2-3 (starting ) cities per player.

Or are we going to go with Old Spain? I'm bringing it up because, well, it is Old.

If we decide to go with New Spain (early Industrial Civil War), please post your factions/cities claimed and UUs

	25-06-2004 09:33									#63
	Tired of ads?

Old Spain

We used to have a map that I expanded so that it was much larger than the actual area, and it fit 7 civs on it easily.

Perhaps I'll get some free time this weekend and try to remake it.

--Togas

	25-06-2004 09:34									#64
	Support Apolyton

However, I think we should sort out the 7 factions, their traits, their starting locations, and their UUs.

I also think we should start in the middle ages.

--Togas

	25-06-2004 10:37									#65
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: However, I think we should sort out the 7 factions, their traits, their starting locations, and their UUs.

Conquistadoros
Militaristic+Commercial
UU: Conkickasstador
10 shields, 80/70/60 with 2400 bombard

(oh...realistic? )
Spamish Mitchell of Sevilla
Sevillans, Sevillite
Seafaring + Agricultural
UU: Elephant (too Indian? )
60 (that's Knight minus 10 right?) Shields, 4/2/2
Requires Iron but no Horses
Color: any (but Pink )

EDIT: Start at Sevilla of course
EDIT: Added some details

	25-06-2004 19:53									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If you need a save from this Demogame before the war started... I have most saves of all demogames I've ever been involved in (until I lost interest) backupped.

So just PM me if you need something.

Aidun

	25-06-2004 21:57									#67
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Plus there's screenshots of the Empire (if the Empire is just a little zoomed out) in the Map Room thread.

	28-06-2004 07:11									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Double post, doh!

	28-06-2004 07:14									#69
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I want to ask for you comrades to think about a civil war in new spain: a commie faction, a republican one (with arnelos on the lead? ) a monarchist one, a catalan and basque separatist one, and we can keep adding more political views/separatist groups if needed be...

I personally think that a enlarged modern spain map, with each faction having 2-3 cities and few room for building further would limit players to having to combine their small, backwards military forces to achieve any sort of victory over one another. This would create a very interesting terrain for diplomacy and covert actions, which may not be Civ3 at itīs most original purpose, but , come on! Doesnīt this sound fun?

I say we should give it a try. Did I say please? lease:

	28-06-2004 07:20									#70
	Inflate your Upload Space

NW, I can make a map for that

Although we should have about 6, at least, cities per player. You know. So it's a close game.

I'll work on it.

EDIT:
By the way, I would like to be in one of the DICTATORSHIP factions--Communist, Fascist, or DESPOT

	28-06-2004 17:51									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

/me, after seeing some fuss in the chatroom, looks to see what is happening

	29-06-2004 01:38									#72
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I have created a map of old spain that has 4x the tiles of the actual map... I took each tile on the actual map and made 4 of them, thus blowing the map up for more players.

I then doubled any resources and luxuries on the map (up to the max of 7), and I've begun to try to better mold the landscape to look less boxy and more playable.

This map will fit 6-7 players. I'm leaning towards 7.

I still don't know exactly who is going to get involved in the game. Do we have 6 people who would like to play this map with me in pbem style?

I plan to start everyone at the middle ages, and to customize each of the factions with unique civ traits and their own unique UUs.

Please post if you want in and give me input on your faction. I'll post more info as I get it.

--Togas

	29-06-2004 09:53									#73
	Remove this text

Here's the map:

	29-06-2004 09:53									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

FACTIONS

note: This will be edited as changes are made

Monarchists
Based out of Madrid
Leader = Togas
Ind + Rel
This Faction wishes to restore the Togas family as Monarchs of Spain.
UU = Heavy Warhorse (5/3/2) (replaces knight)

Republicans
Based out of Pamplona
Leader = Arnelos
Com + Sci
This Faction wishes to unite Spain as a Republic

The Church
Based out of Zaragoza
Leader = Aidun
Rel + Sci
This Faction wishes to impose a Theocracy.
UU = Swiss Guard 1/4/1 (replaces pike)

Calamari
Based out of Toledo
Leader = History Guy
Ind + Com
This Faction wishes to expand their Calmari trade empire to include all of Spain, by any means necessary.


Traders
Based out of Santiago
Leader = Nuclear Winter
Com + Ag
This Faction wishes to expand their silk trade empire to include all of Spain, by any means necessary.

Feudals
Based out of Sevilla
Leader = MrMitchell
Mil + Ag
This Faction wishes to impose a loose Feudal order of independent city-states.
UU = War Elephant (4/3/2) (replaces knight, requires ivory)

Loyalists
Based out of Valencia
Leader = BigFree
Mil + Rel
This Faction opposes the other idealist factions and wishes to unite Spain under his rule, feeling that the other factions have betrayed the true history and culture of Spain.
UU = Chargers (4/2/2) (replaces Med Inf)

Last edited by Togas on 02-07-2004 at 05:58

	29-06-2004 09:55									#75
	Remove this text

note: that little desert in the south is a paintbrush error. Fixed it.

--Togas

	29-06-2004 09:57									#76
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Looking great indeed.
Iīd only sugest some more hills... leaving some openings in the terrain, sort of natural walls with some gates...

Or am I delirous?

	03-07-2004 12:17									#77
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

It's finished

I'm a newbie at making scenerios, and instead of trying to import units or graphics, I used the ones available, by using the UUs of other civs and renaming them. I also renamed and customized 7 civs to match our factions.

UUs:
Monarchists: Warhorse (Rider) 5/3/2
Calamari: Swamp Archer (Bowman) 4/1/2 (4 bombard w/ range 1 and ZoC) (ignores jungle move penalty)
Church: Swiss Pikemen ... this was pretty easy to do.
Republicans: Greek Fire (Hawachi) bombard 8.
Traders: Chargers (Galic) 4/2/2
Feudals: War Elephant ... this was also easy. Requires Ivory and costs less than knight.
Loyalists: Zealots (berzerks) 6/2/1 with amph.

Each faction has a leader named after one of us. This scenerio is Regicide so beware. I gave the leaders 2/3/2 stats.

Barbs are archers and mounted warriors. Watch out.

Renamed some of the wonders to be "more Spanish"

Dejon's Barracks (was Zeus) now requires horses instead of Ivory and ends with Invention.
The Crusades (was Templar) now ends with Navigation.
Masoleum of Togas gives more culture and reduces Corruption like a free courthouse.

Chance of Culture Flip increased 10%

Defense bonuses increased:
Town 50%
City 100%
Metro 150%

Bumped up all of the tech costs (after the first 4) in the middle ages to make this period of our history last longer as all of our GA units come all at the same time ... during this period.

Spy costs reduced

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 03-07-2004 at 12:23

	03-07-2004 19:04									#78
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hey Togas, Iīd like to do some editting of my own in the scenario, I hope you donīt mind. Iīll probably be able to do it by Thursday, and as I think we wonīt start before that...

If there are any objections , let me know (Iīll be at #civ3rp Migros discussing the changes)

	03-07-2004 22:00									#79
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Chance of Culture Flip increased 10% Defense bonuses increased: Town 50% City 100% Metro 150%

In Regicide, do you lose if you lose your last Settler BUT you have a King lying around?

Or do you have to keep both alive?

I'll test that one in a second

	03-07-2004 22:40									#80
	Increase Your PM Length

It was probably a dumb question to begin with, but I have confirmed it:

You must keep both your Settler and your King.

	04-07-2004 02:18									#81
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Winter Hey Togas, Iīd like to do some editting of my own in the scenario, I hope you donīt mind. Iīll probably be able to do it by Thursday, and as I think we wonīt start before that... If there are any objections , let me know (Iīll be at #civ3rp Migros discussing the changes)

Let me know what changes you're proposing.

--Togas

	04-07-2004 03:42									#82
	Remove this text

Togas, Zaragoza is a wonderful place, you know that, but not a very strategic one. Madrid has bonus recources near it. Valencia has more near it than it could wish, Sevilla has the elephants next to its door, Pamplona is situated in the most wonderful valley of Spain, Santiago has silks all around it, Toledo is not well situated, but still has two banana's, but what has Zaragoza? Some normal grasslands southeast of it: hardly able to muster any competition against Pamplona's valley, a desert in the south, and only a few bonus tiles and plains in the east, but others have lots of those too. In the north there is mostly jungle, save for a few forests Can you improve and equalize the regions in Spain a bit?

Resurrected Pope Aidun I

	04-07-2004 03:55									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Something else: today I have been thinking about military units and feudal games and I found it strange that they cost so much. In reality, soldiers were pretty untrained when they joined the army and most medieval and post-medieval armies had very little experience and training. Brining together armies also cost very few time, but very much money, because most post-feudal, late medieval armies and post-medieval armies consisted largely of mercenaries that were hired.

To simulate this and make a game more realistic, I propose that all governments have high unit support costs, and units have very low build costs.

That's just an idea. I'm going to try it in an SP game.

Aidun

	04-07-2004 06:10									#84
	Remove this text

I like Aidunīs sugestions, and thatīs the sort of thing Iīll try and test in Togasīs scenario when I finnally reinstall C3C.
As for his *****ing about Zaragoza, guy, trade! Expand by force!

And I still am trying to think somethign for my UU...

	04-07-2004 06:38									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Whoops, missed out.

	04-07-2004 08:08									#86
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Togas, Zaragoza is a wonderful place, you know that, but not a very strategic one. Madrid has bonus recources near it. Valencia has more near it than it could wish, Sevilla has the elephants next to its door, Pamplona is situated in the most wonderful valley of Spain, Santiago has silks all around it, Toledo is not well situated, but still has two banana's, but what has Zaragoza? Some normal grasslands southeast of it: hardly able to muster any competition against Pamplona's valley, a desert in the south, and only a few bonus tiles and plains in the east, but others have lots of those too. In the north there is mostly jungle, save for a few forests Can you improve and equalize the regions in Spain a bit?

Then take a better UU.

WIA: There's still plenty of time to join. And join the $Mini too.

	04-07-2004 08:43									#87
	Got spare money?

What Zaragoza has that it's neighbors (Santiago and Pamplona) do not have is horses. I also put some bonus grassland in there and some iron not too far off in the east.

Then there's that desert/floodplains (Leon) between the three. Most likely Zaragoza or Pamplona will have it.

I'm trying to be as realistic as possible with the starts, but still balancing them out. I'm currently play testing each of the factions right now at home, and I'll do some further balancing as needed.

NOTE: I have removed the option to have this game be a Regicide game. My large Monarchist army had just beaten down a VERY heavily defended size 11 Pamplona and then *poof* it was gone. That sucks. The greatest city on the board gone thanks to Arnelos getting killed. That shouldn't happen.

Note: With the city defenses slightly higher, it is more of a seige game. You need large #s of forces to take down cities. This seems to go along with the style that we wanted.

--Togas

	04-07-2004 20:39									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, in reality, it was impossible to conquer a city with only soldiers, you needed lots of siege equipment such as catapults, trebuchets and later mortars.

It should, in this scenario, or so I think, be impossible to conquer cities with only some soldiers, no matter what amount.

I also suggested in the beginning to add new buildings such as a citadel and a castle that increase the defensive value of the city.

Aidun

	05-07-2004 00:29									#89
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Instead of adding new buildings, I've increased the natural defenses of each city state. It's assumed that each city has some natural defenses, so the small cities get a 50% bonus. Medium cities get 100% bonus and metropolises (should we ever get there) are 150%.

Also, after further playtesting last night, I have concerns about Zaragoza. I'm going to play as Zaragoza in the next few days and may add a bit more useable land and a lux (wine) to their territory.

--Togas

	05-07-2004 02:27									#90
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Try to make all the regions compareble in strenth, but not identical.

Aidun