18-05-2003 08:01									#391
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither GePap, the French do a good enough job of undermining alliances, as I posted earlier in this thread. There are many people, in many countries 'allied' with France, who have every right to be very unhappy with the French government now, and in the not too distant past.

As far as I have seen, no french public offials have gone to the press and said :we should rehtink our alliences with the US, or Britain, or Spain, or Italy. Only US figures do so, and only about the French.

quote: And you know, somehow I don't think a bunch of Canadians being unhappy with a French president kick-starting a seperatist movement in our country are being self righteous idiots.

I don;t know (nor care) about Chirac and Quebec.

quote: The thread isn't about the war. You're making it out to be.

Of course this thread is about the war. Look at all the reasons given for why france is "bad" and thus deserves the punishment and should thus not say anything (which was a huge part of thsi thread) it is all about the war with Iraq. So how then is this NOT about that war and its afternath?

	18-05-2003 08:03									#392
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quote: I don;t know (nor care) about Chirac and Quebec.

Wasn't it DeGaulle and Quebec? Or am I sadly misinformed?

EDIT: Never mind, I doublechecked for meself. 'Twas De Gaulle.

	18-05-2003 08:05									#393
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I don;t know (nor care) about Chirac and Quebec.

In other words, you don't have a clue about the history of France and her 'allies', and you don't give a fig about anything that detracts from your position.

The French don't make good allies. Ask the Czechs and the Poles if you don't believe me.

	18-05-2003 08:06									#394
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Spiff:

The US is always late: late for the last two world wars, late with its "White man's burden" missionary zeal.

	18-05-2003 08:07									#395
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quote: Originally posted by GePap As far as I have seen, no french public offials have gone to the press and said :we should rehtink our alliences with the US, or Britain, or Spain, or Italy. Only US figures do so, and only about the French.

You're sh*tting me!

What did Chirac say to the Eastern Europeans?

	18-05-2003 08:08									#396
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What did Chirac say to the Eastern Europeans?

STFU you insolent kids :finger:

	18-05-2003 08:09									#397
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither In other words, you don't have a clue about the history of France and her 'allies', and you don't give a fig about anything that detracts from your position. The French don't make good allies. Ask the Czechs and the Poles if you don't believe me.

Well, neither do the Poles, it seems, since when the germans took over Bohemia, the Poles took a small chunk out of czechoslovakia for themselves. Oh, and France did declare war on germany when Germany invaded (and reformed Poland in Napoleonic times)

And no, i assumed that your beef with France now was based on some comments Chirac made about Quebec, and since I don't care to find out what chirac would say about Quebec, well, not an issue for me. But it does seem your francophobia may predate anything having to do with Iraq.

	18-05-2003 08:10									#398
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor STFU you insolent kids :finger:

No. I don't think that was it.

Hmmm... something about membership?

	18-05-2003 08:11									#399
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't know what the specifics are on the accusations so I read it another way. Do you know what the specifics are?

quote: Originally posted in the article De Villepin confirmed press reports that French ambassador to Washington Jean-David Levitte had sent a letter to top US presidential aides and politicians complaining of a nine-month "organised campaign of disinformation" via media stories sourced to anonymous US officials. In the letter, the ambassador complained that US President George W Bush's administration had done little in public to quell anti-French sentiment created by false news stories. The White House and the Pentagon swiftly rejected any allegation that there was an orchestrated effort to spread disinformation about France, which drew Washington's ire by opposing the war to oust the Iraqi dictator.

	18-05-2003 08:12									#400
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You're sh*tting me! What did Chirac say to the Eastern Europeans?

quote: No. I don't think that was it. Hmmm... something about membership?

Yes, it was a comment about BECOMING allies, to possible FUTURE allies at the time, not membvers already. Oh, and these states have not suffered any reprecussions from the French at all, with their EU status.

	18-05-2003 08:13									#401
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And no, i assumed that your beef with France now was based on some comments Chirac made about Quebec, and since I don't care to find out what chirac would say about Quebec, well, not an issue for me. But it does seem your francophobia may predate anything having to do with Iraq.

Francophobia? Nothing irrational about it. The French don't make good allies, that's all.

Oh, I know, they were willing to defend Germany to the last German, Brit, and American during the Cold War. That was swell of them.

	18-05-2003 08:13									#402
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GePap:

quote: And no, i assumed that your beef with France now was based on some comments Chirac made about Quebec, and since I don't care to find out what chirac would say about Quebec, well, not an issue for me.

I agree with most of the stuff you've said in this thread, but why do you have to downplay the De Gaulle-Quebec incident? It is a pretty big thing, and a free Quebec would affect America. I think poking at the coals of seperatism, which indirectly leads to terrorist action by the FLQ, should 'affect' you very much.

It would be like if Trudeau had gone to Northeastern Spain and triumphed the cause of Basque Independence. I would not expect the Spaniards to be pleased.

	18-05-2003 08:14									#403
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Thank's for showing you stripes NYE. I know not to bother discussing your francophobia with you anymore.

	18-05-2003 08:16									#404
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quote: Originally posted by cinch GePap: I agree with most of the stuff you've said in this thread, but why do you have to downplay the De Gaulle-Quebec incident? It is a pretty big thing, and a free Quebec would affect America. I think poking at the coals of seperatism, which indirectly leads to terrorist action by the FLQ, should 'affect' you very much. It would be like if Trudeau had gone to Northeastern Spain and triumphed the cause of Basque Independence. I would not expect the Spaniards to be pleased.

How is it downplaying it to say, honestly, I don't care? De Gaulle was generally a bastard, so fi you guys want to complain about this one stupid act of his, go ahead, call de Gaulle a bastard.

	18-05-2003 08:18									#405
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Thank's for showing you stripes NYE. I know not to bother discussing your francophobia with you anymore.

It took you this long to realise I was saying the French don't make good allies? A little slow on the uptake, don't you think?

	18-05-2003 08:18									#406
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Spiffor,

I thought you meant that the Bush administration was spreading dirt about the French govt. You don't expect the Bush admin to take the French side on this do you? Why would they?

	18-05-2003 08:20									#407
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It took you this long to realise I was saying the French don't make good allies? A little slow on the uptake, don't you think?

No, let me put it succintly: no rational, or historically bases argument I could make for why that statement is biased would not do anything to change ingrained beliefs, so i will no longer waste time.

	18-05-2003 08:26									#408
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Spiffor, I thought you meant that the Bush administration was spreading dirt about the French govt. You don't expect the Bush admin to take the French side on this do you? Why would they?

No, I meant my government is thinking some people from the US government -in its wide definition- are giving rumors to the media, and my government ask yours to stop these individuals.

I don't expect the Bush admin to take the French side, except for the PC diplomatic talk where both sides claim to be eternal allies (I was surprised by one Bush's speech when he hold this kind of words).
But I think it would be normal from the Bush admin to take the steps it can to reduce the French-bashing. Should some people of our government spread rumors in the media which would lead to more anti-americanism, the US would rightly demand our gov to stop this behaviour.

	18-05-2003 08:28									#409
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No, let me put it succintly: no rational, or historically bases argument I could make for why that statement is biased would not do anything to change ingrained beliefs, so i will no longer waste time.

In other words, you don't have any counter-balancing examples of when the French ever were a good ally to anyone, so you are admitting defeat.

	18-05-2003 08:30									#410
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither In other words, you don't have any counter-balancing examples of when the French ever were a good ally to anyone, so you are admitting defeat.

	18-05-2003 08:32									#411
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Well, just an example.
During the Cuba Crisis, De Gaulle was the first ally of the US to call Kennedy and tell him France would be on US side.
Yes, at a time when people thought the nuclear apocalypse was near.
Yes, the evil treacherous De Gaulle

	18-05-2003 08:32									#412
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Spiffor,

I would like to see our govts work together on this problem. In that case they should discuss it together, not through the media.

On the other matter, I don't think it would benefit anyone for Bush to try and stop the French bashing going on. It's best just to let it be for a while and then things will get back to normal. Whatever permanent damage there is from this (hopefully not too bad) can't be helped.

	18-05-2003 08:35									#413
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Well, just an example. During the Cuba Crisis, De Gaulle was the first ally of the US to call Kennedy and tell him France would be on US side. Yes, at a time when people thought the nuclear apocalypse was near. Yes, the evil treacherous De Gaulle

Ohhh. He made a phone call in a situation France could do nothing about. Sounds like the politik thing to do.

Meanwhile, Canada has nearly put the genie of seperation back in the bottle. Not quite, and it could still go bad.

Thanks, ally

	18-05-2003 08:43									#414
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quote: Ohhh. He made a phone call in a situation France could do nothing about. Sounds like the politik thing to do.

France had nuclear warheads on its own, and De Gaulle put them for the interests of the west bloc at this very moment. The reward for such a move would have obviously been the nuking of France if the nuclear apocalypse indeed happened.

Had De Gaulle been the weasel the Yanks picture him to be, he'd have tried to get out of this mess rather than entering it wholeheartedly.

	18-05-2003 08:55									#415
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Good point Spiffor.

	18-05-2003 08:56									#416
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HEY DINODOC!

have you looked into Ethiopia-Eritrea 1998-99?

I think it was a better example than some of the ones you gave, since people could quible about the relative powers of Parliments in systems with Monarchs.

	18-05-2003 08:58									#417
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GePap :
From what I understood reading this thread, DD thinks democracies do fight each other, and he gave examples of this to Davout, who thinks the opposite.

	18-05-2003 08:59									#418
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Spiffor: That's correct and he's giving me a better example.

	18-05-2003 09:03									#419
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Good point Spiffor.

Thanks .
I'm eagerly awaiting NYE's reply, because I'm wondering how he will make the case of France being a bad ally in that example. I don't think he'll argue 'this is the only one example', since I answered to his request of giving any one example where the French have been good allies.

	18-05-2003 09:10									#420
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Thanks . I'm eagerly awaiting NYE's reply, because I'm wondering how he will make the case of France being a bad ally in that example. I don't think he'll argue 'this is the only one example', since I answered to his request of giving any one example where the French have been good allies.

And we appreciate the current govt threatening to join the last war if Saddam used WMD.