17-05-2003 12:41									#91
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler From this side of the Atlantic, it looks like the Bushies have dropped any pretense of being an Ally.

You sound like Richard Pearle.

	17-05-2003 12:45									#92
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quote: Originally posted by LoneWolf The sel-righteousness of the American "extreme-right" has impacted you in Germany how, exactly? And we are dragging who, where?

Me in Germany?

It's mostly an annoyance, but it is causing some serious problems to western security. The US wants all kinds of things, from intelligence information to basing/overflight rights, to diplomatic and financial support etc. Unfortunately, Europe is not yet determined to deal with this on a strict quid pro quo.

	17-05-2003 12:47									#93
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler From this side of the Atlantic, it looks like the Bushies have dropped any pretense of being an Ally. But I'm actually not too unhappy about that development. Time to clear the air.

Oh yes. And it was big buildings in Europe that went poof on 9/11. Is that it?

Let's face it, the touchy-feely diplomatic way isn't and wasn't getting the job done. Terrorism has never been worse and was not getting better.

Time to try another tack, but oh no, not for the French and some of the other Euros. There is never too much time for talk. We can talk and talk and talk until the next big building blows up, then maybe we'll do something, or maybe we'll talk some more...

Yes, time to clear the air. I agree.

	17-05-2003 12:47									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You sound like Richard Pearle.

It's all in my username.

	17-05-2003 12:49									#95
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Me in Germany?

Like there's any real difference between Germany and Austria.

	17-05-2003 12:50									#96
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Me in Germany? It's mostly an annoyance, but it is causing some serious problems to western security. The US wants all kinds of things, from intelligence information to basing/overflight rights, to diplomatic and financial support etc. Unfortunately, Europe is not yet determined to deal with this on a strict quid pro quo.

That's because Europe couldn't hope to defend itself from rising threats unless it dismantled the welfare state. Don't wanna do that. Better keep cousin Sam around a while longer.

	17-05-2003 12:50									#97
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Like there's any real difference between Germany and Austria.

We are the last holdout of Bavarian independence.

	17-05-2003 12:54									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy Lord Merciless, did you know they have a Minister of the Protection of the French language ?

I know. I don't think you can the word 'Computer' in France publicly. 'Odinateur' is the term they have to use.

	17-05-2003 12:55									#99
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's because Europe couldn't hope to defend itself from rising threats unless it dismantled the welfare state. Don't wanna do that. Better keep cousin Sam around a while longer.

Cousin Sam can go home yesterday.

Rising threats like Saddam, sure. A third world country, sanction starved, that even a neighbour like Jordan doesn't see as a serious threat.

You know the difference between the US and the EU vis a vis Saddam's Iraq? The US militarily outspent it 200:1, the EU just 100:1.

	17-05-2003 13:04									#100
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh yes. And it was big buildings in Europe that went poof on 9/11. Is that it?

Which has has what to do with America's illegal war of aggression against Iraq?

I can only assume that there is a feeling of treason in America - "the evil French etc don't support us in our war on terror".

Well, that feeling should be directed against Washington, a much better address for it.

	17-05-2003 13:06									#101
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Cousin Sam can go home yesterday. Rising threats like Saddam, sure. A third world country, sanction starved, that even a neighbour like Jordan doesn't see as a serious threat. You know the difference between the US and the EU vis a vis Saddam's Iraq? The US militarily outspent it 200:1, the EU just 100:1.

What's the difference vis-a-vis Russia?

I wonder how you measure defense spending in an Islamist state, like you have growing in several member states of the EU?

Europe's problem is not only that you practically begged the Yanks to not go home again, but that you still could not stand on your own if left to your own devices even to this day.

	17-05-2003 13:11									#102
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Which has has what to do with America's illegal war of aggression against Iraq? I can only assume that there is a feeling of treason in America - "the evil French etc don't support us in our war on terror". Well, that feeling should be directed against Washington, a much better address for it.

If you think Iraq was some misplaced step in what the Yanks have planned for OBL, I have a bridge to sell you in London.

Was it an obvious step in anti-terrorist efforts? No. However, it was not as if Saddam's hands were clean of the splatter from terrorism, and now... the Yanks are on the ground adjacent to SA, Iran, and Syria. The bases are being moved out of SA. Do you want to buy a clue?

	17-05-2003 13:11									#103
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"What's the difference vis-a-vis Russia?"

Maybe 20-30:1

"I wonder how you measure defense spending in an Islamist state, like you have growing in several member states of the EU?"

I have no idea what this is supposed to ask.

"but that you still could not stand on your own if left to your own devices even to this day"

Defense: instantly.
Intervention in Europe: a few years

	17-05-2003 13:12									#104
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"the Yanks are on the ground adjacent to SA, Iran, and Syria. The bases are being moved out of SA. Do you want to buy a clue?"

You're completely missing the issue.

	17-05-2003 13:13									#105
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Haa! Europe couldn't even sort out Bosnia on it's own.

BTW, you have a ways to go to even come close to catching up to Russia's long neglected military potential, and at the rate you guys spend, you are doomed to never finish.

	17-05-2003 13:15									#106
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "the Yanks are on the ground adjacent to SA, Iran, and Syria. The bases are being moved out of SA. Do you want to buy a clue?" You're completely missing the issue.

No, actually, I think you have. But don't feel bad, so did the French.

	17-05-2003 13:16									#107
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"Haa! Europe couldn't even sort out Bosnia on it's own."

Bad clown, bad!

I said: "Intervention in Europe: a few years"

"BTW, you have a ways to go to even come close to catching up to Russia's long neglected military potential, and at the rate you guys spend, you are doomed to never finish."

Of course you never let facts get into the way of your extreme rightwing prejudice. Or have you been listending to Serb too much?

	17-05-2003 13:22									#108
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Extreme right wing. Hee haw!

Now, where are your facts? All I've seen so far is your and my words for it. btw, When did Austria gain the ability to begin armageddon? Christ, the Brits couldn't do that.

	17-05-2003 13:30									#109
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Armageddon? I know Bush's role, but who would lead the Good?

The French and the Brits can turn most of Russia or America into a nuclear wasteland. I consider that a sufficient deterrant.

As for Russia's military, its spending level is somewhere in the 30-50 billion $ range, compared to France 40 billion, UK 35 billion, Germany 30 billion etc. But of course, we all know that should Albania be taken over by muslim fundamentalists, they would march unhindered on Berlin and Paris, right, NYE?

	17-05-2003 13:34									#110
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler But of course, we all know that should Albania be taken over by muslim fundamentalists, they would march unhindered on Berlin and Paris, right, NYE?

I would expect the Germans to put up more resistance than the French.

	17-05-2003 13:38									#111
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A buch of 40 year old soldiers/make-work-projects don't get much done, Roland.

The Brits and French would get themselves and all of Europe incinerated in any confrontation, and not all of the oppo would get it. For whatever good that did them. Aside from the fact that against the US, the sub based bit (which is most of it) would go blub blub blub long before launching.

As for what the Russians are doing... It doesn't cost a lot to store T80's and T90's. When they get back on their feet all your continental toy armies wouldn't be worth a tin soldiers chance in Hades. Oh, and they prolly aren't paying union wages, if they pay wages at all at the moment. Keeps the costs down.

	17-05-2003 13:41									#112
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand http://www.pave-france.org/

Is that link supposed to be funny ? If you are to mock France, you could at least do so in an original way, rather than re-hashing the old & tired prejudices

	17-05-2003 13:45									#113
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quote: Originally posted by LoneWolf Honestly, Hersh, have you read Le Monde? How can you say such silly things?

Care to show me ONE antiamerican (I'm not talking about anti-Bush) article in Le Monde ? Just one ?

	17-05-2003 13:48									#114
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"A buch of 40 year old soldiers/make-work-projects don't get much done, Roland."

Ah, you read the WSJ. I suppose that is the source of all your military expertise on european forces.

"Aside from the fact that against the US, the sub based bit (which is most of it) would go blub blub blub long before launching."

I think that would only happen to the Brits, but it doesn't matter much.

"As for what the Russians are doing... It doesn't cost a lot to store T80's and T90's."

Oh, and how many are they storing? And how many t-55s are they storing?
Then you can ask MtG how they would fare against the Leopard II A5 and A6 versions.

"Oh, and they prolly aren't paying union wages, if they pay wages at all at the moment. Keeps the costs down."

You again impressively show that you do not understand various concepts of military spending estimates from an economic perspective.

	17-05-2003 13:50									#115
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You have yet to show that you understand them, Roland. Why should I?

And g'night.

	17-05-2003 13:54									#116
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The difference is, I can. Happy dreams about imputed cost estimates for military service in the national accounting for military spending.

	17-05-2003 13:56									#117
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Like there's any real difference between Germany and Austria.

Now this was really an insult

	17-05-2003 14:03									#118
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Exactly. So a Saupreiss, amrikanischa!

	17-05-2003 14:04									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy Lord Merciless, did you know they have a Minister of the Protection of the French language ?

This is false. We have a Culture Minister whose job is to conservate our public inheritance, to support new forms of cultural expression (partly through financing moviemakers), and to promote the use of French.

Nobody is forced to use the word "Ordinateur", it just happens to be the French word for computers. Are you Yanks and Rosbifs forced to use the word "Computer" ? - No. Yet, do you use the word "Ordinateur" on a daily basis ? - No. Why so ? - because "Ordinateur" is a foreign word to you. As a matter of fact, the compsci language in France is one of the areas where English is most present. We speak about RAM, CD Roms, Windows etc. just like you do.