17-05-2003 22:58									#181
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Sure, but it's the French's right to advocate against the war just like it's America's right to advocate in favor of war.

Sure, it's their right. They can do as they see fit. But don't expect us to treat them well in the morning, depending on the actions that they have taken.

	17-05-2003 22:58									#182
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"No. America didn't have to make a power play because we were already the #1 power anyway by 1945. Western Europe was decimated so USA filled in the rest of the vaccuum."

And seeked to maintain that power against the Russians (who admittedly were doing the same but that is no excuse).

"One of the reasons America kicked so much ass in WW2"

How many died for Iwo Jima? America has had no problems with giving big numbers, dissent or no dissent. It was also under no threat to its existence, unlike the UK, who even in their fight for life in the Blitz, had dissent, and rightfully so, against some of the policies of the government.

You have not shown why ethnocentrism is a good basis for international relations, and a measure of a healthy society in the long term. In the long term of course, it creates a static "tyranny by majority", which hampers progress, and will inevitably lead to decline, and that would be a terrible shame for a society with so much potential.

"Of course you are Libertarian so I know your views are to the extreme. Screw the government eh? They are stealing from you..."

Hardly... please dont strawman me based on one word. My libertarianism is far more complex than some simplistic perception of a "commie flag burner".

	17-05-2003 22:59									#183
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"But don't expect us to treat them well in the morning."

Another example of a somewhat immature, childish, irrational, emotional response to a complex situation, that can only lead to animosity and harm in the long term.

	17-05-2003 23:01									#184
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By the way, the UK handled the situation far more effectively than Germany or France.

Like one British person put, "if you want to stop a horse, do you stand in its way and get runover, or do you get on and take the reigns?"

	17-05-2003 23:02									#185
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Kidicious: I studied extensively the media coverage of Gulf War II, its consequences and surrounding issues (like the France issue), and one thing become clear. Most of the American news stations, noteably CNN, ABC and Fox were highly biased towards America. The British media was more objective, the BBC was still biased towards the Americans and British, while Channel 4 (an independent news organisation "for the intelligentsia") seemed to be most objective. The American networks were easily as biased towards America, as Al Jazeera was towards Iraq, although the latter had a much greater quality of analysis, and quantity of reports and sources on the ground. Much of the US news network material came direct from American government and army. While there is no active anti-french attitude by Bush (if this was no so, he would have been made an international pariah more so than already), there is much passive anti-francism. The lack of condemnation of some of the faulty reporting (which was operating in US govt interests) is a clear example of this. Unfortunately, I have to refute your piece about there being no "smear campaign". If you watched Fox news from late february until a couple of weeks ago, you would eat your words. Not only is "dumbed down" media patronising and weak, it is downright dangerous, as the lack of analysis leaves it wide open to bias, which would otherwise be checked by reason.

Oh, they are pro-American biased for sure. That doesn't translate into anti-French. I don't watch Fox news. Anyone who takes them seriously is stupid.

	17-05-2003 23:03									#186
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The UK government is an ally. Dont expect that to last for too long. More people protested in Britain against the war than France and Germany combined (although we were participating in the war so one would expect that).

The British people are much more friendly the the French and Germans, than they are to the Americans. There is much resentment among the British people that we feel like the "51st state". The people regard themselves as British and European (to an extent).

	17-05-2003 23:04									#187
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Oh piss off, elijah. Of course it's emotional as well as rational. As an American taxpayer, I paid thousands of dollars to depose Saddam Hussein. France actively worked against us on this project.

	17-05-2003 23:04									#188
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quote: Originally posted by elijah "No. America didn't have to make a power play because we were already the #1 power anyway by 1945. Western Europe was decimated so USA filled in the rest of the vaccuum." And seeked to maintain that power against the Russians (who admittedly were doing the same but that is no excuse).

And pretty much kept Western Europe free of being taken over by them. YOU ARE WELCOME.

quote: "One of the reasons America kicked so much ass in WW2" How many died for Iwo Jima? America has had no problems with giving big numbers, dissent or no dissent. It was also under no threat to its existence, unlike the UK, who even in their fight for life in the Blitz, had dissent, and rightfully so, against some of the policies of the government.

So what? How do you think all those guys got supplied?

quote: You have not shown why ethnocentrism is a good basis for international relations, and a measure of a healthy society in the long term. In the long term of course, it creates a static "tyranny by majority", which hampers progress, and will inevitably lead to decline, and that would be a terrible shame for a society with so much potential.

Ethnocentrism has nothing to do with the argument.

When you start pulling out "isms" then I know you're talking out of your ass.

quote: "Of course you are Libertarian so I know your views are to the extreme. Screw the government eh? They are stealing from you..." Hardly... please dont strawman me based on one word. My libertarianism is far more complex than some simplistic perception of a "commie flag burner".

You've already strawmanned yourself but pulling out the word in the first place.

	17-05-2003 23:05									#189
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"I don't watch Fox news. Anyone who takes them seriously is stupid"

Good answer

When the media talks about France in America lately, I rarely find them speaking in a positive context... or even neutral... it is always full of negative connotations. And it is a pity, stereotypes, discrimination, ethnocentrism, surely we have learned by now that these are fallacies and should not be encouraged. How many more people have to suffer and die before we learn this?

	17-05-2003 23:09									#190
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"Oh piss off, elijah"

Finally, we have reached the limit of one persons capacity for reason and logic.

"And pretty much kept Western Europe free of being taken over by them"

LOL! you failed history didnt you? Neocolonialism did nothing to protect western europe. One could argue it harmed the security, by further antagonising the Russians.

"So what? How do you think all those guys got supplied?"

No-one was arguing that America doesnt have a large population and a large, efficient military (and surrounding industries).

"Ethnocentrism has nothing to do with the argument.

When you start pulling out "isms" then I know you're talking out of your ass"

On the contrary it does. Look it up in Websters. Dont limit the scope of ones argument, it serves to "dumb it down", reducing the potency of ones reasoning to solve a problem by using all concepts available (like isms).

"ass"

Its arse

	17-05-2003 23:10									#191
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What would the good news about France be?

	17-05-2003 23:11									#192
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"You've already strawmanned yourself but pulling out the word in the first place"

Ummm, how?

My libertarianism is the concept that I have spent much time forging in my mind, and the same for others of my disposition, that enables us to critique totalitarianism, and its dictators, and yet, do the same to those that would force their subjective on the former.

	17-05-2003 23:12									#193
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"What would the good news about France be?"

Please dont tell me that America has not been introduced to what is surely the 8th wonder of the world.... FRENCH PORNOGRAPHY! :hippy:

	17-05-2003 23:14									#194
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ah bloody vb code

	17-05-2003 23:15									#195
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quote: Originally posted by elijah "What would the good news about France be?" Please dont tell me that America has not been introduced to what is surely the 8th wonder of the world.... FRENCH PORNOGRAPHY! :hippy:

Seriously, France took an active adversarial position against the US. You must realize that it will be reported in the US media. Again, the best thing to do would be to let time improve the relationship and not try to solve this problem ourselves.

	17-05-2003 23:20									#196
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As a writer and student of philosophy and politics, I use all the resources at my disposal to do what I can about international problems. The limitations of the individual are also our greatest asset, another reason why dissent at all times it is desired is a good thing in the long term.

Of course it will be reported in US media, but I expect from "objective" media, a degree of objectivity, and not to jump on the bandwagon of prevailing opinion at the time. It was not active adversarial, because that implies war, the very thing France is opposed to (after their 20th century history, can you blame them... i know there were other reasons...). It was more passive, as that word implies only situational impedence, as opposed to active impedence (military action). Situational impedence is a legitimate tool of governments.

	17-05-2003 23:26									#197
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quote: As a writer and student of philosophy and politics, I use all the resources at my disposal to do what I can about international problems.

So you're a blowhard. Cool.

As a True Player and student of Thugganomics I can tell you to get out of the books and into the world.

	17-05-2003 23:34									#198
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Surely a "blowhard" (sorry I'm not familiar with such ...exotic "langauge") is better able to analyse international issues, politically, philosophically and economically, and better qualified to question such important matters, than a "thugganomist".

It is perhaps an indictment of American foreign policy that it is determined and supported on the whims of such people, and I fear for the future of the intellectually-minded of America, a land with some people who now to be suppressing their most potent natural asset.

	17-05-2003 23:35									#199
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Speak English please this isn't a philosophy paper.

	17-05-2003 23:37									#200
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*looks at passport*

7 African states, most of Europe, Saudi Arabia, Israel, India, Pakistan, China, Japan, USA, Canada, Russia, Brazil, Argentina, South Korea

	17-05-2003 23:38									#201
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Wow.

Your credentials sure are impressive.

That must mean you know more than anybody else.

	17-05-2003 23:38									#202
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Speak English please this isn't an exercise in who can suppress the greatest amont of their synapses!

	17-05-2003 23:39									#203
	Put an end to popups!

*Looks at wallet: pulls out Junior G Badge.*

	17-05-2003 23:39									#204
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"That must mean you know more than anybody else"

No, it means I understand more.

	17-05-2003 23:39									#205
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I've never seen anybody so high on themselves before.

Sad really. What do you have to prove to everybody? Or do you have something that you haven't provent to yourself yet?

	17-05-2003 23:40									#206
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Lets keep this intelligent, before it develops into a slanging match. I have enough of that on the FreeBSD forums

	17-05-2003 23:40									#207
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Of course it will be reported in US media, but I expect from "objective" media, a degree of objectivity, and not to jump on the bandwagon of prevailing opinion at the time.

You can't judge Americans strictly by our 1/2 hour news programs. It's not possible to get the complete picture in 2-3 minutes. Some of us look at more in depth sources too.

quote: Originally posted by elijah It was not active adversarial, because that implies war, the very thing France is opposed to (after their 20th century history, can you blame them... i know there were other reasons...). It was more passive, as that word implies only situational impedence, as opposed to active impedence (military action). Situational impedence is a legitimate tool of governments.

The French govt took active measures to undermine US diplomatic efforts. War is just an extension of diplomacy.

	17-05-2003 23:40									#208
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http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame43.html

	17-05-2003 23:41									#209
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Lets keep this intelligent, before it develops into a slanging match. I have enough of that on the FreeBSD forums

Well now that's something I can agree on depending on your opinion.

FreeBSD

Linux

	17-05-2003 23:42									#210
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elijah is not representative of the British people. People protested during the war, but post war polls have indicated large support for Blair and his actions.