17-05-2003 13:01									#1
	Science discussion thread Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This thread is to advise our minister of Science what we think he should be researching, and WHY.

At the moment we are getting Centauri Ecology (for formers)

I reccomend that the next tech be either :

Biogenetics (for recyling tanks)

or

Information Networks (network node, leads directly to Planetary Networks - probe teams and PLANNED)

It probably won't always let us get two white techs (or any other colour) in a row though... so I would personally go for :

• Info Networks,
  
• Industrial base,
  
• Planet Networks, change to PLANNED econ.
  
• Industrial econ,
  
• Doctrine : Mobility,
  
• Industrial Automation(crawlers), change to WEALTH,
  
• Doctrine : Loyalty, change to POLICE STATE.
  
• And finally Biogenetics (Rec. Tanks)
  

In that order

This is (to me) the optimum way to get the right SE choices, crawlers, formers, the basic base facillities and we should have a lot of forests planted by then too This is my "best starting plan" with the Hive.

Minister of Science, comments? Anyone else?

-Jam

	17-05-2003 13:13									#2
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I think we should go for Info Net to get a Network Node so we can compete in teh scientific field. I would even go so far to suggest that for a short time we use "Knowledge" as our value choice untill we are more comfortable.

	17-05-2003 13:17									#3
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Wealth helps us more - it cancels out the minus on our economy to an acceptable level so that all the bases can contribute. -1 energy per base with Knowledge, -1 energy for only the HQ base with wealth. Also Wealth gives +1 industry too, IIRC. Also to get Knowledge we have to climb up a less optimal branch of the tech tree

-Jam

	17-05-2003 13:24									#4
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I suggest Info Networks. This way we can hopefully speed up our research. I think that as soon as we have the chance, we should aim for Planned.

	17-05-2003 13:27									#5
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That would be Info Networks, something else, then Planetary Networks, then Frankychan. I agree.

-Jam

	17-05-2003 13:33									#7
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Should read post before hitting send reply....
Should read post before hitting send reply....
Should read post before hitting send reply....
Should read post before hitting send reply....
Should read post before hitting send reply....
(x2000)

-Jam

	17-05-2003 13:39									#8
	Re: Science discussion thread Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by War of Art This thread is to advise our minister of Science what we think he should be researching, and WHY.

[real life]Comrade, you beat me to this thread by about 20 minutes. I planned to post it as soon as I got off work and my weekend officially started. (Yes, I work nights.)[/real life]

quote: At the moment we are getting Centauri Ecology (for formers) I reccomend that the next tech be either : Biogenetics (for recyling tanks) or Information Networks (network node, leads directly to Planetary Networks - probe teams and PLANNED) It probably won't always let us get two white techs (or any other colour) in a row though... so I would personally go for : Info Networks, Industrial base, Planet Networks, change to PLANNED econ. Industrial econ, Doctrine : Mobility, Industrial Automation(crawlers), change to WEALTH, Doctrine : Loyalty, change to POLICE STATE. And finally Biogenetics (Rec. Tanks) In that order This is (to me) the optimum way to get the right SE choices, crawlers, formers, the basic base facillities and we should have a lot of forests planted by then too This is my "best starting plan" with the Hive.

I generally concur on the path, but prefer to have Rec Tanks in place before the switch to wealth, as the +1/+1/+1 is a boon to early growth and production. We may not be alone on this island.

	17-05-2003 13:56									#9
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The touble is that Biogenetics is a white tech, and the game won't always allow two consecutive techs from the same colour. It could be inserted between Doctrine : Mobility and Industrial Automation perhaps? Then all bases would have to get the rec tanks built before Ind Auto brings the crawlers (because then we'll want a lot of bases building crawlers, I suppose)

-Jam

	17-05-2003 14:10									#10
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quote: Originally posted by War of Art The touble is that Biogenetics is a white tech, and the game won't always allow two consecutive techs from the same colour. It could be inserted between Doctrine : Mobility and Industrial Automation perhaps? Then all bases would have to get the rec tanks built before Ind Auto brings the crawlers (because then we'll want a lot of bases building crawlers, I suppose)

This seems like a good idea to me, as the +1 mineral is beneficial when crawler production begins, as is the +1 industry from wealth.

	17-05-2003 18:34									#11
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But that should be the only concession we make before getting crawlers, right?
I want these admirable little thingies out as soon as possible!

	18-05-2003 06:17									#12
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So does anyone *NOT* think that Information Networks is a good choice for second tech?

	18-05-2003 06:57									#13
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how close are we with other factions? Depending on the answer to that and wether they may be friendly enough to trade or not. Our research path may change.

	18-05-2003 07:21									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Zero how close are we with other factions? Depending on the answer to that and wether they may be friendly enough to trade or not. Our research path may change.

At this point we can't know. We only just finished the first turn (again).

	18-05-2003 08:18									#15
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As a faction you are at a slight disadvantage in that I don't think any of you have been in any PBEM's or Challenges that I've CMN'd, whereas all the others have at least one or two 'vets' from my campaigns.

They'll already know this, so I'm not breaching any "fairness' rules by giving a little insight into how I set up PBEMs:

When I put you on the same landmass as another faction I'll generally separate your start positions by at least 40 tiles, so that it'll be 20 turns or so before you meet (unless the other is Sparta, with their rovers, or the Angels, with their longstriding probes)

I love continents separated by narrow channels (that can be terraformed bridged) or joined by narrow isthsmuses (that can be choke-point defended

Every human faction is as likely to meet the AI as to meet another human faction - it's my "equal opportunity" rule, giving all factions the chance to meet and conquer (or be conquered by) the AI, or to trade and pact with them (maybe with the exception in this game of the Pirates who can prolly explore and contact faster than anyone else)

As the intent of this game is the creation of 'virtual societies', where the fun is as much in the byplays, propaganda, newspapers, etc (and the turnplaying is only to more formalize the discoveries, diplomacy, etc), it would be remiss of me to set it up so that a human-played team could be destroyed within 40 or 50 turns (unless through gross negligence such as leaving bases undefended for Miriam's hordes to waltz into.)

I tweak the AI generally to follow their preferences/aversions as regards Pacting or Vendettas. To recap:

Believers - Choices: Fundy ..... Aversions: Knowledge
Angels - Choices: Democratic ... Aversions:Power

(but they have surprised me in games where they have gone counter-intuitive)

I trust that helps in the deliberations

G.

	18-05-2003 10:42									#16
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Thanks for the info, Googlie.

So I assume it's safe to say that we'll be on our own for the time being, and that the first people we meet may or may not be happy to see us, obviously.

Which makes getting a Network Node even more critical this early in the game.

	18-05-2003 14:47									#17
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We pray we have the Angels on our continent, or a peaceful Human faction then

-Jam

	18-05-2003 22:34									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski We pray we have the Angels on our continent, or a peaceful Human faction then

Somehow I doubt we'll get that lucky, given who we are. We have to expect the worst.

	19-05-2003 03:10									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski We pray we have the Angels on our continent, or a peaceful Human faction then -Jam

That's assuming, of course, that I haven't made them atrocity victims of the Hive in the settings (in which case it's Vendetta to the death)



G.

	19-05-2003 05:35									#20
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You wouldn't be so evil.... would you ?

-Jam

	19-05-2003 06:56									#21
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Naw - that's be too easy (and in fairness would have to be the same for all the human controlled factions)

It'll be up to you and the choices you make as to how both Roze and Miriam interact with you. Conflicting social agendas will do it, as will squabbling over a common boundary or piece of land.

I don't think they'll be pushovers, especially in the early game (see the other threads on this, re game set-up, where I had to dumb down the AI after the first playtest 'cos they were just too darned powerful)

I think they'll knock heads at some point, particularly as they and you (the human players) expand, but that's why this is such a rich game (smac/x, I mean) as diplomacy can work wonders in putting a smile on a sour face

G.

	19-05-2003 07:14									#22
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memo : change to fundy as soon as possible

-Jam

	19-05-2003 09:06									#23
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Hive Fundy:

The chairman has the mandate from heaven, he is God's representative on Chiron.

	19-05-2003 16:20									#24
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A religious authority commands a communist state???

Well, ok, stop consuming these little plants, they make you crazy...

	19-05-2003 16:53									#25
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But they taste so good Mr Wardrobe-head, thats what all the small talking cockroaches are telling the cat about.

-Jam

	22-06-2003 06:26									#26
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*bumped*

(In light of discussion re Applied Physics)

	23-06-2003 09:34									#27
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Jamski will hate it, but here is an updated possible tech path for the short term. Any objections?

1) Doctrine: Loyalty, POLICE STATE
2) Centauri Ecology, Formers, WP
3) Info Networks, Network Node
4) Applied Physics, Laser (2)
5) Nonlinear Mathematics, Particle Impactor (4)
6) Planet Networks, PLANNED, Holo Theatre, Virt World, Probe
7) Industrial base, Synthmetal, Mech Exch.
8) Industrial Economics, FREE MARKET, Energy Bank
9) Industrial Automation, WEALTH, Crawlers, PTS
10) Biogenetics, Rec Tanks
11) Doctrine: Mobility, Rover

	23-06-2003 09:48									#28
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Dont plan too far ahead. We may have to revise our research priorities sooner than we might expect. Doctrine: Mobility before Industrial base. We need to be prepared for whats out there. Plus if we happen to run into any nearby factions we can harras them with our Impact Rovers. Also keep the option doct:flexibility open.

	23-06-2003 09:49									#29
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Wouldn't the people benefit from the productive principles of Planned economy, from Planetary Networks?

	23-06-2003 18:33									#30
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Is it always a good practise that the rec tanks should wait until after the crawlers? (I always get the rec tanks first)