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Caligastia is offline Caligastia
King
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Sep 2000
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  Old Post 18-05-2003 01:27
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The Evidence of Things Not Seen
A study that supposedly validates "diversity" may do just the opposite.

BY CHETLY ZARKO
Friday, May 16, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT

The New York Times' Jayson Blair, an individual reporter given to fabrication, was also, alas, a member of a group--a favored group, if we are to believe the Times' boasts about its efforts to achieve "diversity" in its newsroom. For better or worse, diversity policy has become part of the Blair controversy. It is also something on which the Supreme Court is about to rule.

The modern idea of diversity, of course, was given its first big push into the culture not in corporate hiring and promotion but in university admissions, where the 1978 Bakke decision enshrined both the word and the practice. Fittingly, the university campus is now the site of the biggest push against it--in a case before the high court questioning preferential admissions at the University of Michigan.

One of Michigan's major claims, in its legal arguments, is that student diversity enhances the environment for learning and improves the quality of education. Implied is the notion that when a greater number of blacks and other minorities are introduced into the classroom, a more diverse pool of ideas and "perspectives" is generated and everyone gains.





But is this true? The university has said yes, asserting that it has conducted studies showing just such an educational benefit. In its legal briefs and testimony, it has leaned heavily on something called the Michigan Student Study (1990-94). Patricia Gurin, a University of Michigan professor of psychology and the university's key statistical witness, has testified that the 1994 study, with two others, "consistently confirms that racial diversity and student involvement in activities related to diversity have a direct and strong effect on learning and the way students conduct themselves in later life, including disrupting prevailing patterns of racial separation."
But that wasn't the way the 1994 study was first understood. As it happens--through a Freedom of Information Act request--I was able to obtain a copy of the study's first "Executive Summary," submitted on May 24, 1994. It concluded that Michigan's racial preference programs actually "stigmatized" African-Americans and "increasingly polarized" the campus; that "self-segregation" was common; that "diversity of skin color" is not equivalent to "diversity of ideas" (financial disparities were more telling); and that diversity "quite simply . . . does not, in itself, lead to a more informed, educated population."

Supporting economically based race-neutral preferences, the report noted that "our results suggest that too often we tend to overemphasize differences in terms of the kinds of people we are, while underemphasizing real differences in resources (especially financial)." Ironically, the summary was co-written by Ms. Gurin's husband, Gerald, also a professor of psychology (now retired).

So what happened between then and now to lead Michigan to read the study another way? That is hard to say. Right now "executive summaries" are all we have--confusingly. In 1998, the first summary was consigned to the ashbin of history and another version was posted on the Internet--and it agrees with Patricia Gurin's testimony. Mr. Gurin is the co-author of both versions and is given credit by his wife for assisting in her expert testimony. (The Gurins never responded to my request for comment.)

A puzzle indeed. One would think, given the importance of the claims being made for the Michigan study and the differing accounts of what it says, that the court and the average citizen should be able to judge the numbers for themselves. But the university has locked away the raw data--for years, as it turns out. Thereby hangs a tale.

The Bentley Historical Library, Michigan's archival repository, used to allow researchers unfettered access to its collections, except for the records of the university's president and vice provost for academic affairs, which were sealed for 10 years. After 2001, however, a new policy sealed the records of all executive officers for 20 years. The logic, according to Fran Blouin, the director of the archives, was to protect historical accuracy by ensuring that individuals wouldn't be tempted to withhold or destroy records that might be politically damaging in the short run.

Unfortunately, the policy changed while the admissions lawsuits were going forward and after I (and other researchers) had made several requests for the admissions-related material. True, a successful appeal through the Freedom of Information Act could unloose some documents, but not easily. The university requires that its FOIA officer review each document, and it will charge up to $57 an hour for such a review. In these conditions, research becomes impossibly expensive.

Fortunately, the material I was looking for was carefully indexed, and when I sent a targeted request in February 2003 for a select few of the newer admissions-related folders from former President James Duderstadt's "restricted" collections, the university was obliged to produce something. And they did. On March 27, four days before oral arguments before the Supreme Court, I discovered the 1994 Executive Summary.

In April, alerted to the importance of the Michigan Student Study, I requested access to the raw data itself, hoping to be able to turn them over to statisticians so that they could perform their own tests and "peer review" the original data. On April 22, the university's FOIA office denied me access to the data, citing a Michigan law protecting data of "commercial value" to the university.





The current Internet version of the Executive Summary does discuss many of the issues raised by its predecessor, but it either focuses on the (hidden) data differently or suggests different data to support its more pleasant viewpoint. In one of the finer distortions of the first work, the Internet version uses a different data snapshot to conclude that "the findings call into question the common perception that students of color are self-segregating themselves on college campuses. The greatest self-segregation occurs among White students." This starkly contrasts with the first summary's conclusion that "students of color [are] not as concerned [as whites] with social 'integration.' "
Perhaps this is all explicable, but how are we to know when researchers and the public are denied access to raw data and when an internal, contradictory report is concealed from the public for years? In her testimony to the court, Patricia Gurin wrote: "Students learn better in a diverse educational environment, and they are better prepared to become active participants in our pluralistic, democratic society once they leave such a setting." What does a student learn about "our pluralistic, democratic society" from a university that behaves in such a way?

http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110003502

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
AA is all about treating people according to their group status, not as individuals. It's legalized discrimination - the same kind of discrimination the civil rights act was supposed to end.


No it's not. Civil Rights ended limitations on people. AA opens up opportunities, and only for those who are capable of taking advantage of those opportunities. If you aren't qualified, AA won't help you.

Again, I need to reiterate that the largest recipients of AA are white people, specifically, white women. Anyone with a working white wife, gf, partner, etc, needs to thank AA, because without it, white women never would have gotten the chance to prove themselves.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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And yet when white reporters do the same thing for years (say, Bob Greene in Chicago), we blame the individual, and not any programs that might have helped that person get there. The fact that unscrupulous people take advantage of things doesn't mean the problem is with the thing. Or should we ban all driving because some people speed?

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 18-05-2003 01:34
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


No it's not. Civil Rights ended limitations on people. AA opens up opportunities, and only for those who are capable of taking advantage of those opportunities. If you aren't qualified, AA won't help you.


Bollocks, it helped Blair Jayson plenty. If you think incompetent people don't gain from AA you're living in a dream world.
quote:

Again, I need to reiterate that the largest recipients of AA are white people, specifically, white women. Anyone with a working white wife, gf, partner, etc, needs to thank AA, because without it, white women never would have gotten the chance to prove themselves.


I don't really care which race or sex benefits, I think these things should be judged on merit only.

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  Old Post 18-05-2003 01:43
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I think it helps give a "the Black man needs to get help to do as well as the White man" impression.

Maybe we should let Black people vote on it.

orange is offline orange
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  Old Post 18-05-2003 01:49 Visit orange's homepage!
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Man...guy takes a 2 hour power nap and the thread has shot up in replies...I'll try to catch up

quote:
Socialist bollocks. Why is it that Arabic doctors in sweden are forced to take jobs selling ****ing hot dogs while there's a huge demand for people with their skills in hospitals?


I don't know, but it's not because of me.

quote:
Why are there no women cheif executives in the entire fortune 500?


I don't know, but it's not because of me.

quote:
Why do working-class people hurl racist abuse at blacks, exclude them from their communities and treat them as less?


I don't know, but it's not because of me.

quote:
Why is it still socially acceptable to hate homosexuals?


I don't know, but it's not because of me.

You see Snappy, none of those things are my fault. I don't have a problem with Arabs, I don't have a problem with women, I don't have a problem with blacks, and I don't have a problem with homosexuals. I treat people as individuals. I think everyone else should too. If someone is more qualified for a job, they should get it regardless of race religion gender or sexuality.

quote:
Ask anyone from the less powerful groups how they feel, get their perspective on things before dismissing their problems as by-products of the Capitalist system.


Who says I haven't? I've spoken with many people on the issue. In fact, I've spoken with members of some minority groups who say they HATE AA because it paints them as inferior and unable to succeed without help from the white male.

I'm all for helping the lower class out since they have it harder, but not the 'black man' since the 'black man' exists on all ends of the socio-economic spectrum. I realize that the majority of black people in America are lower class, but I do not think it's fair for someone to be pushed ahead if they are less qualified just because they are black (or another minority). And I LIKEWISE feel that it is unfair for someone to be held back because they are black (which is why discrimination is against the law)

Inverse Icarus is offline Inverse Icarus
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reverse racism.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Bollocks, it helped Blair Jayson plenty. If you think incompetent people don't gain from AA you're living in a dream world.


What helps all the other people who make up BS in the papers? Jayson is hardly the first report to make up stories for years and get away with it while the editors looked the other way, and he won't be the last.

quote:
I don't really care which race or sex benefits, I think these things should be judged on merit only.


Nothing involving humans is judged solely on merit. Nor will it ever be. I know someone who works at the company, that get's me an in, puts me on the A-list to be hired. My dad went to school at Yale, that means I'm automatically accepted. My dad knows the right people, and I get appointed President of the US.

Merit is simply one factor among many. It's also damned hard to quantify. What if I'm the best damned programmer around, but I refuse to pratice good hygene. Merit alone gets and keeps me the job, even though I make it impossible for everyone else to do their work.

Since racism and sexism cause adverse affects which can be measured, if we want the best people in jobs and schools, we need to make allowances for it. Are unscrupulous people gonna exploit the system? Unscrupulous people will always find a way to game the system. Unless you can answer why we shouldn't ban cars, highways, and driving because some people speed you are being inconsistent when you single out one system that people can cheat.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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  Old Post 18-05-2003 02:08
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"My dad knows the right people, and I get appointed President of the US."

Perhaps your dad knowing the right people helps him teach you to become a more suitable candidate for President.

Social capital.

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 18-05-2003 02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


And yet when white reporters do the same thing for years (say, Bob Greene in Chicago), we blame the individual, and not any programs that might have helped that person get there.


AA for whites?

quote:

The fact that unscrupulous people take advantage of things doesn't mean the problem is with the thing. Or should we ban all driving because some people speed?


I tend to think driving is far more essential than AA, don't you? Which would you rather have?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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  Old Post 18-05-2003 02:27
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Reverse Racism.

quote:
Why are there no women cheif executives in the entire fortune 500?


Isn't the head of HP a woman? Or did she get canned for the Compaq merger?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
AA for whites?


Let's see: legacies, fraternities and sororities, etc. Yep, AA for white men.

quote:
I tend to think driving is far more essential than AA, don't you? Which would you rather have?


So if it helps you, we can ignore the fact that people scam the system, but if it helps someone else, it's an outrageous abuse? Driving may be necessary, but so is getting a job and going to school. Banning driving would hurt everyone. Banning AA would only hurt a small group of people, so that's acceptable.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Reverse Racism.

quote:
Why are there no women cheif executives in the entire fortune 500?


Isn't the head of HP a woman? Or did she get canned for the Compaq merger?


She's gone, but I don't know the reason why. There's another one now, though, IRRC. Didn't pay very close attention to that article.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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  Old Post 18-05-2003 02:31
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Let's see: legacies, fraternities and sororities, etc. Yep, AA for white men.
1) Sororities are for women.
2) Frats serve both blacks and whites.
3) If you and I are thinking of the samething, legacies are race neutral.

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 18-05-2003 02:32
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
What helps all the other people who make up BS in the papers? Jayson is hardly the first report to make up stories for years and get away with it while the editors looked the other way, and he won't be the last.


It's not just a matter of BS, he blatantly plagiarized from other writers for years. Anyone else would have been caught long before he was, but noooo they had to have their diversity didn't they...

quote:

Nothing involving humans is judged solely on merit. Nor will it ever be. I know someone who works at the company, that get's me an in, puts me on the A-list to be hired. My dad went to school at Yale, that means I'm automatically accepted. My dad knows the right people, and I get appointed President of the US.


To be selected on your merit is still the ideal situation, just because it doesn't happen as often as it should is no reason to make things worse with programs like AA.
quote:

Merit is simply one factor among many. It's also damned hard to quantify. What if I'm the best damned programmer around, but I refuse to pratice good hygene. Merit alone gets and keeps me the job, even though I make it impossible for everyone else to do their work.


If you have poor hygene, that counts against your overall merit I reckon.
quote:

Since racism and sexism cause adverse affects which can be measured, if we want the best people in jobs and schools, we need to make allowances for it. Are unscrupulous people gonna exploit the system? Unscrupulous people will always find a way to game the system. Unless you can answer why we shouldn't ban cars, highways, and driving because some people speed you are being inconsistent when you single out one system that people can cheat.


Again, AA is something that we can easily live without - cars and highways are not.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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  Old Post 18-05-2003 02:35
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quote:
She's gone, but I don't know the reason why.


The main reason, I think, is the Compaq deal. Apparently she strongarmed it through, but a lot of HP's shareholders were against the idea. It was really wierd. I'm sure a lot of people disliked her after that.

Carver is offline Carver
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  Old Post 18-05-2003 02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia


AA for whites?


Yeah. How do you think Little Bush got into Harvard - AA for rich white people.

quote:

I tend to think driving is far more essential than AA, don't you? Which would you rather have?


That's not a choice we have to make; you completely missed Che's point. If a Stafford Loan receiving college student plagiarizes on a paper should the whole Stafford Laon program be eliminated? Of course not.

Only a pure blood racist would try to use Jason Blair as evidence for what we should do with public policy. You are a sad person.

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  Old Post 18-05-2003 02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Let's see: legacies, fraternities and sororities, etc. Yep, AA for white men.


DD already answered this for you...

quote:

So if it helps you, we can ignore the fact that people scam the system, but if it helps someone else, it's an outrageous abuse? Driving may be necessary, but so is getting a job and going to school. Banning driving would hurt everyone. Banning AA would only hurt a small group of people, so that's acceptable.


Must you persist with this terrible analogy? Banning AA would hurt barely anyone, and in fact would put a stop to certain people being promoted to positions they can't handle, and accepted to schoold they can't keep up in. Banning AA would only hurt those who weren't qualified anyway.

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Carver
Only a pure blood racist would try to use Jason Blair as evidence for what we should do with public policy. You are a sad person.



I pity you.

Carver is offline Carver
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  Old Post 18-05-2003 02:45
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
2) Frats serve both blacks and whites.


The white Frats are more likely to be connected to business, so they have an advantage. When you consider the number of white Frats and Sororities that exclude blacks (especially in the South) it becomes a noteworthy factor.

quote:

3) If you and I are thinking of the samething, legacies are race neutral.


If you ignore the fact that the parents of many blacks were barred from attending many institutions of higher learning. That is simply racism through race neutral language.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Must you persist with this terrible analogy? Banning AA would hurt barely anyone, and in fact would put a stop to certain people being promoted to positions they can't handle, and accepted to schoold they can't keep up in. Banning AA would only hurt those who weren't qualified anyway.


That's where we disagree. I say banning AA would hurt qualified people that schools and companies are required now to take. I see far too much racism, and not stuff which can be debated, but openly avowed racism to think that qualified white women, and minorities of both genders wouldn't be hurt. Hell, just look at the continuing discrimination against gay people.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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quote:
If you ignore the fact that the parents of many blacks were barred from attending many institutions of higher learning. That is simply racism through race neutral language.


Always seeing racism where it doesn't exist again, Carver?

The reason legacies are more easily admitted is in order to get more endowment from past alumni. If you graduated from a school, wouldn't you give more if your kid was now going there? Come on, let's look at this rationally!

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quote:
Originally posted by Carver
If you ignore the fact that the parents of many blacks were barred from attending many institutions of higher learning. That is simply racism through race neutral language.
This arguement might have had more merrit if we haven't had around 40 years of integrated classes going through various institutions of higher learning, even at Ole Miss.

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  Old Post 18-05-2003 02:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The reason legacies are more easily admitted is in order to get more endowment from past alumni. If you graduated from a school, wouldn't you give more if your kid was now going there? Come on, let's look at this rationally!


The affect is racially skewed, in favor of whites, indicating the need to level the playing field. e.g. AA

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Well, depending on the school, it's highly likely that even though minority students have been able to attend classes, they have not done so in numbers proportionate to their percentages in the general population. If only seven percent of the people attending college are Black (the percentage of incoming freshmen at DePaul University in 1993--in a city that was 44% Black), the legacy system isn't gonna help all that much. Plus, you can only be considered for a legacy if your parents graduated. A disproportionate number of minority students (excepting Asians) don't finish school. So the legacy system helps to perpetuate previous discrimination.

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quote:
The affect is racially skewed, in favor of whites, indicating the need to level the playing field. e.g. AA


The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is not all that old. The legacies will level off, when more and more minorities go to institutions of higher learning. The playing field will level. I don't favor using AA just because legacies have been more white than minority. After all, most people in the country are white as well. If, say, black legacies make up 12% of total legacies, then there would be no need to level the field, because that is their percentage of the total population (IIRC).

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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
This arguement might have had more merrit if we haven't had around 40 years of integrated classes going through various institutions of higher learning, even at Ole Miss.


There were only a handful of African-Americans in mainstream institutions of higher learning 40 years ago. Some were admitted but most could not attend due to past depravation of educational opportunity and lack of financial resources. The affect of "legacies" is tremendously skewed in favor of whites.

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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The playing field will level.


Why should we wait? This is the only life we've got. I demand fairness now.

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quote:
Some were admitted but most could not attend due to past depravation of educational opportunity and lack of financial resources.


So why not admit based on economic status rather than race?

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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
Some were admitted but most could not attend due to past depravation of educational opportunity and lack of financial resources.


So why not admit based on economic status rather than race?


Because racism is a seperate effect.

 
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