18-05-2003 03:09									#61
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A disproportionate number of minority students (excepting Asians) don't finish school.

Aren't you pointing out another problem with the system as it stands: allowing students into schools they aren't prepared for?

	18-05-2003 03:12									#62
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quote: Because racism is a seperate effect.

So? Then make the admissions process race-blind. Simply don't ask it.

	18-05-2003 03:15									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Aren't you pointing out another problem with the system as it stands: allowing students into schools they aren't prepared for?

Correlation doesn't equal causality. I knew a couple of students who dropped out because they couldn't put up with the racism in the school. I'm sure there are people who got a hand up who couldn't handle it, but there are a lot more people who got an opportunity to succeed that they wouldn't have had without AA.

It's hardly a perfect system, but until society is ready to make the effort to really fix minority schools, it's all we got.

	18-05-2003 03:18									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Because racism is a seperate effect. So? Then make the admissions process race-blind. Simply don't ask it.

The prior effects of racism will still be in the system. Discrimination has a proven effect on test scores. If you ignore this, then you let people who are discriminated fall through the cracks.

Racism + economic problems is harder to face than either by itself. They are seperate (though frequently related) problems.

	18-05-2003 03:22									#65
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quote: The prior effects of racism will still be in the system.

What effect could you possibly be talking about? If the admissions board has no knowledge of your race, what effect could it possibly have?

	18-05-2003 03:22									#66
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quote: The prior effects of racism will still be in the system. Discrimination has a proven effect on test scores.

Then deal with it at the lower levels of education, and if there are problems due to poverty give a boost based on poverty levels. As minorities get better primary education, they will start doing much better on the tests. Fixing racism by more (albeit different) racism isn't a valid solution, IMO.

	18-05-2003 03:24									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The prior effects of racism will still be in the system. Discrimination has a proven effect on test scores. Then deal with it at the lower levels of education,

But this isn't happening!!!!! If they would do it, then we could let AA for education go by the wayside.

Kirnwaffen, try reading the whole post.

	18-05-2003 03:25									#68
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quote: But this isn't happening!!!!!

Then make it happen. Poor white kids shouldn't be denied oppertunities they should have simply because they were born white.

	18-05-2003 03:26									#69
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Reread the post and realized what you were talking about. You do realize that the admissions board will look at more than test scores. Things like grades, community service, essays. Their are ways to make yourself attractive to schools other than good SATs.

edited for grammar.

	18-05-2003 03:29									#70
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"I knew a couple of students who dropped out because they couldn't put up with the racism in the school. "

If they can't deal with racism in school, how are they going to deal with racism, or any other sort of nastiness out there? College is if anything a less racist environment then real world. Personally, I've yet to meet a racist student or teacher.

Use common sense. If someone who is admitted to school with lower academic qualifications then the student body in general, isn't it more likely they won't do as well? Now, some people do become better students in college then they were in HS, but I would think on a whole the same students who were good in HS would be likely to also be in college.

In any case, I really don't find an unwelcoming environment a good excuse for poor academic performance or dropping out. At the High School Level, there are some kids who are out victimized and target for every sort of nastiness imaginable, but they don't drop out and often times these kids do better academically then the population as a whole?

"There were only a handful of African-Americans in mainstream institutions of higher learning 40 years ago. Some were admitted but most could not attend due to past depravation of educational opportunity and lack of financial resources. The affect of "legacies" is tremendously skewed in favor of whites."

But not all white have legacies, and if you give advantages to the whites with legacies and then the minorites with AA, you are leaving behind the impoverished white. Economics is by far the most important variable here, racism is not.

	18-05-2003 03:39									#71
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quote: The white Frats are more likely to be connected to business, so they have an advantage. When you consider the number of white Frats and Sororities that exclude blacks (especially in the South) it becomes a noteworthy factor.

There are all black frats as well, not to mention all homosexual frats. In most places it's pretty difficult to get away with an "all white frat", not that I support those, or any frats that are exlusive (though technically all are, because they don't allow women)

	18-05-2003 05:17									#72
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THE NEGORES DONT UNDERSTAND THAT SLAVERY WAS IN MANY WAYS GOOD FOR THEM - FREE EDUCATION AND GOING TO A SUPER RICH COUNTRY WHERE THEY WOULD BE MUCH MORE RICHER THEN IF THEY STILL BE IN AFRICA!


OF COURSE NO TO THE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION THE STUPID LIBERALS WANT JUST BECAUSE IT!


USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA!

	18-05-2003 06:07									#73
	Put an end to popups!

Ok, as much as I enjoy seeing trolls designed to make conservatives look bad, this one is so obvious and uncreative as to be worthless. *Flush*

	18-05-2003 06:08									#74
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EVERYONE WHO WAS THE 50TH INDUCTEE TO THE POLY HALL OF FAME POST BELOW!!!

	18-05-2003 06:11									#75
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Ok, who's DL is this... serious .

	18-05-2003 06:12									#76
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That stupid fatass UberKruX, or maybe Sava

neither of them know how to come up with an original gig!

	18-05-2003 07:48									#77
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i don't like aa.

if you go by the notion that asians are assimilated, then we obviously didn't really need it.
if you go by the notion that asians are still discriminated against, then we obviously don't get it.

	18-05-2003 10:09									#78
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Wealth-based AA would be a good thing.

Race-based AA is a pretty crappy substitute, but it's better than nothing.

	18-05-2003 12:06									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Wealth-based AA would be a good thing. Race-based AA is a pretty crappy substitute, but it's better than nothing.

quote: That stupid fatass UberKruX, or maybe Sava

I laughed my ass off on this one.

	18-05-2003 13:49									#80
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TOUGHGUYUSA was a DL of a eurocom, AFAIK.

gee, fancy that.

	18-05-2003 16:15									#81
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said by roy ayers on 2000 black people:

gotta think about your future and forget about your past cause all the things you lived before cant be lived again.

	18-05-2003 21:03									#82
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quote: gotta think about your future and forget about your past cause all the things you lived before cant be lived again.

The past is the past. Let it be that way.

If we allowed the history books to give special treatment to people then the Irish, Jews, Italians, should be all deserving of these benfits.

Point being, opening up the history books to solve our problems is like opening up Pandora's Box.

AA is obvioiusly reverse-discrim. because it has fixed outcomes whih is Communist which is obviously what we opposed and has failed

quote: Wealth-based AA would be a good thing

Not really.

Hey everyone, simple concept -

Best man for the job. You're the best man, most qualified, you get the job. Period.

	19-05-2003 20:21									#83
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's where we disagree. I say banning AA would hurt qualified people that schools and companies are required now to take. I see far too much racism, and not stuff which can be debated, but openly avowed racism to think that qualified white women, and minorities of both genders wouldn't be hurt. Hell, just look at the continuing discrimination against gay people.

C'mon Che, you should be able to see that AA is fundimentally a racist system. My chinese co-worker has told me of many of his friends and relatives who didn't get into Ivy-league schools simply because they were chinese. They are incredibly intelligent, with perfect scores in everything - perfect candidates in every way - except for their race. I just don't understand how you can agree with a system that fosters open racial discrimination.

	19-05-2003 20:41									#84
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Well intentioned, but ultimately reverse racism and counterproductive, IMO.

Plus, if it IS a good idea and is working, then at some point the time will come to end it, right?

Obviously racism is still a problem for our society. However, it seems to me that things have improved considerably and continue to do so.

The racism that remains in America, as I see it, is a very personal, individual thing. Personal, individual things are difficult to combat via legislation. We've done away with institutionalized racism. The attempt is made to actively combat prejudice via education (though I think more work is necessary here... it's my opinion that education is the most valueable weapon we have against racism). But it seems to me that few people really change their views on something as big as race - change occurrs, by and large, by generation. How many generations have we gone through since the 60s?

I'm not saying that the current situation is acceptable - status quo is fine. I also completely understand the argument that one shouldn't have to wait for fairness (especially since the unfairness goes back hundreds of years at this point). But the rational side of me says that combatting unfairness with unfairness is creating other problems, even if it solves the one it's trying to solve.

I understand why AA was thought up. I think its goal is a noble one. But the methods suck.

-Arrian

	19-05-2003 22:36									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Captain Obvious Hey everyone, simple concept - Best man for the job. You're the best man, most qualified, you get the job. Period.

what, and put all those talking-head pundits out of work? naw, it's more gratifying to sacrifice America's vaunted meritocracy on the altar of 'diversity'


{{ DL!!!! DL!!!!!!! DOOT!! DOOT!! DOOT!!


[since this sava nimrod will do it anyway, i'm gonna beat him to it this time ] }}

	19-05-2003 22:39									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Socialist bollocks. Why is it that Arabic doctors in sweden are forced to take jobs selling ****ing hot dogs while there's a huge demand for people with their skills in hospitals? Why are there no women cheif executives in the entire fortune 500? Why do working-class people hurl racist abuse at blacks, exclude them from their communities and treat them as less? Why is it still socially acceptable to hate homosexuals? Ask anyone from the less powerful groups how they feel, get their perspective on things before dismissing their problems as by-products of the Capitalist system.

I do not understand how racism has anything to do with socialism or capitalism. However, I see a role for affirmative action for admissions to college. The mix of people in college should reflect society as a whole.

However, once in college, I think the person should achieve on their own and not be given any further advantages. We have seen in the likes of Condoleeza Rice and Colon Powell that blacks can perform extremely well at the highest levels and really do not need a leg up.

However, racial discrimination must still be outlawed. If an institution exhibits a pattern of exclusion, affirmative action may be an appropriate judicial remedy to fix the exclusionary conduct.

	19-05-2003 22:46									#87
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quote: I see a role for affirmative action for admissions to college. The mix of people in college should reflect society as a whole.

Why base society as a whole based on race alone? What about poor, intelligent white kids who can't affor school, yet some dumb, black kid whose dad is rich get a scholarship and admission based souly on the fact that he is black? If any AA should exist in college admissions it should be based on social stratus and not the color of that persons skin... That would be more fair and less racist.

quote: However, racial discrimination must still be outlawed. If an institution exhibits a pattern of exclusion, affirmative action may be an appropriate judicial remedy to fix the exclusionary conduct.

I agree, but by requiring AA you are already conficting that institution for crimes they have not committed. AA should be the exception and not the norm. Also, institutions of minority origion exhibit patterns of exclusion too, but are generally overlooked. This also needs to be rectified.

Personnally, I don't see AA as reveresed prejudism I see it as prejudism plain and simple. It is merely a method of ostrasizing a catagory of citizen for the sake of equality... and this is complete hypocracy.

	19-05-2003 22:48									#88
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"The mix of people in college should reflect society as a whole."

The thing is, that AA actually exists shows that fewer black people are intelligent enough to go.

	21-05-2003 01:56									#89
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quote: Evangalist anti-Catholicism hasn't ended here, btw.

Care to elaborate, Chegitz?

As for AA, if the student is qualified they should get in regardless of race. As for the legacies, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Blacks should be allowed to set up scholarships for other blacks.

	21-05-2003 02:40									#90
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Actually, this thread is dead wrong...

the reason why AA still exists today is no longer to improve economic oppurtunities but rather for 'diversity' in colleges. People didn't notice the change over the years in the basis for AA that those supporting it have said?