20-05-2003 00:39									#61
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Who's Hitler?

	20-05-2003 00:45									#62
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some of Robert Carlyle's lines sound strangely similar to Fez...

	20-05-2003 01:34									#63
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The first part was good.

	20-05-2003 02:52									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Was he ever arrested?

I only browsed shortly through this thread, so forgive me if it already was said:
Yes, Hitler was arrested for a year around 1924, after he incited a revolt (mainly in Munich). In jail, he had time to write (or complete) "Mein Kampf".

Besides: Boris is right. I always suspect that demonizing Hitler serves to lull vigiliance. Hitler belongs to the past, we are living now. What we can learn, is to compare patterns of Hitler's behaviour with acts of today. No (ok, probably no) really evil person would be so stupid to have their followers running around with brown clothes. History doesn't repeat word by word. But patterns do repeat, and we have to be vigiliant now.

	21-05-2003 02:15									#65
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quote: And that's always been one of the most disturbing things about Naziism.

Again, Solzhenitsyn says it better than I ever could:


"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart.

Criminal is the government that throws the national property up for grabs and its citizens into the teeth of beasts of prey in the absence of law.

Why is Germany allowed to punish its evil-doers and Russia is not? What kind of disastrous path lies ahead of us if we do not have the chance to purge ourselves of that putrefaction rotting within our bodies? ... In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future."

http://members.aol.com/Aspirennies/...olz/Ssquote.htm

	21-05-2003 02:36									#66
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I thought that part one was a bit overdone. The bit where Hitler beat the dog was a bit strange, since everyone knows he liked animals more than people (the guy was a committed vegetarian for Christ's sake). The rest of it was overblown in similar ways, although it did do a good job of emphasising how the Nazis were part of the crazy political climate of the time. And they downplayed his decorations (which there is some dispute about).

You can call him what you like but I've seen no evidence that he was a coward or a bad soldier.

What I'd have liked to have seen is a film that starts from Hitler's childhood and paints him as the quiet, sensitive child he apparently was - a boy and teenager whom many people liked. Presumably his frustrations as an artist and the traumatic experience of the war were fundamental in the development of his personality and ideas.

If he was portrayed more sympathetically I think it would make a more powerful film, because I think we would then be closer to understanding the nature of his evil and how it is reflected in our own natures.

	21-05-2003 04:49									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Some madmen are created by society, and some are born. Hitler seems to be a creation of environment. He seemed an annoying person before WW1, and after 4 years in the Somme his more brutal and insane characteristics came to the fore.

But how many people had essentially the same environment? Yes, his Dad was rigid, unloving and severe, but in those days these were considered good paternal traits, so millions of boys must have had similar upbringings. Many of them must also have been survivors of the Somme, too, though I believe that only a small fraction of the men who joined the German Army on the same day as Hitler made it to Armistice Day. I'd have liked to have seen a more thorough treatment of his childhood.

	21-05-2003 04:57									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon What I'd have liked to have seen is a film that starts from Hitler's childhood and paints him as the quiet, sensitive child he apparently was - a boy and teenager whom many people liked. Presumably his frustrations as an artist and the traumatic experience of the war were fundamental in the development of his personality and ideas.

Who knows? Maybe his childhood and youth really had little to do with his ultimate personality formation. I'm going to catch it from some of our pro-drug people for saying this, but the German Army medical corp routinely administered synthetic cocaine to gas attack victims in the belief that they could prevent shock. Perhaps the involuntary administration of a psychostimulant changed his personality.

	21-05-2003 06:01									#69
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Agathon,

quote: What I'd have liked to have seen is a film that starts from Hitler's childhood

Did you know that Hitler and Wittgenstein went to the same school? There's gotta be a drama-documentary in that.

	21-05-2003 07:02									#70
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i think one of the first posts stated it perfectly, Hitler was a charismatic and brilliant madman all in one...

love him or hate him, the 20th C is full of dictators and Hitler is one of the best...

he gets a bad rap for slaughtering the jews and trying to take over the world...

but Stalin killed 20-30 million of his own people during his reign of terror..and many were jews too....

the victors always portray the losers as the villains...

in hitlers case he truly was a despicable man....brilliant in some ways, evil in others and an amazing public speaker who was able to captivate people with his intensity.

i am watching this mini series, but to be honest , i think its a bit weak

	21-05-2003 08:10									#71
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2nd part was good too!!

It was really interesting to see how he manipulated poor old Hindenburg and the rest of the country with him. Just making people bend to his will by sheer charisma.

I liked how they did it. His rise through the political structures of Germany makes for good theatre. Adding his childhood would have bogged it down and make it boring, IMO.

	21-05-2003 08:28									#72
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Hitler was also a moronic micromanager who violated one of the most basic tenets of war by attacking the Russians: Never start a two front war.

	21-05-2003 08:30									#73
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever i think one of the first posts stated it perfectly, Hitler was a charismatic and brilliant madman all in one... love him or hate him, the 20th C is full of dictators and Hitler is one of the best... he gets a bad rap for slaughtering the jews and trying to take over the world... but Stalin killed 20-30 million of his own people during his reign of terror..and many were jews too.... the victors always portray the losers as the villains... in hitlers case he truly was a despicable man....brilliant in some ways, evil in others and an amazing public speaker who was able to captivate people with his intensity. i am watching this mini series, but to be honest , i think its a bit weak

Was he really brilliant, or was it simply that he didn't know better than to allow his every selfish impulse rise to the surface? Perhaps he had the "rare" knack of complete and unabashed cynicism which permitted him to make a superficial show of paying homage to certain traditional mores while subverting them to his own purpose and yet so able to so delude himself that he felt not the slightest qualm over his deception. He also had a "knack" to know which mores to make a show of keeping and which to make a show of breaking. He was in touch with the people, because he was one of them, amnd the people of Germany loved him for this, yet he kept himself above them.
I wonder whether in some ways he wasn't a sort of evil version of Chancey Gardner in "Being There", someone who seemed more intelligent than he really was because people expected it of him.

	21-05-2003 08:34									#74
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Doc, I think part of it is that he WAS brilliant, but also his following of every selfish impulse made him seem smarter than he was. After all, doesn't the quote go Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration (or something). You will find few people in history that had the knowledge of where they wanted to go and went full force to that end. He didn't waver or compromise and got it by brute force. Yet, his brilliance showed itself in his politics. He knew how to manipulate people. He knew how to put himself in the right place at the right time. That was sheer brilliance, IMO.

	21-05-2003 16:14									#75
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A thousand kilometers deep in Russia in the middle of winter...that's "the right place at the right time," I suppose. When and why did he stop being brilliant and become stupid?

Like any sociopath, he had a good ability to read people. In Europe of the 20s & 30s, where revulsion for war and militarism was almost universal among intelligent people, Hitler's recklessness paid off. It was difficult for ordinary people to accept that anybody could be that loony, an image that Hitler capitalized on.

As people caught on to his cons (some catching on too late, of course), Hitler's gambling ended its winning streak. It's amazing how much his IQ appears to have dropped between 1939 and 1943. By that time he was advising his generals to fight the Russians "Indian style," based on the wild-west books he was so fond of. Some genius.

	21-05-2003 21:57									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs Agathon, Did you know that Hitler and Wittgenstein went to the same school? There's gotta be a drama-documentary in that.

I had no idea. It was the high school in Linz. Apparently Hitler had a low opinion of Wittgenstein because he was a homosexual.

	21-05-2003 22:43									#77
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That's funny, coming from a person with a single testicle.

	21-05-2003 22:49									#78
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quote: When and why did he stop being brilliant and become stupid?

You do realize that there is a difference in being brilliant politically and being brilliant militarily... or do you believe they are the same? And thus, I guess you'd be in favor in all of the brilliant generals to rule countries or the brilliant politicians to run the nitty-gritty of armies?

	22-05-2003 01:20									#79
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It was decent, but the lack of Herman Göering was noticable.

Herman was at the March after the Putsch, yet I didn't notice him in the film, or perhaps I just didn't recognize him??

This guy was a major Hitler crony, he should have been featured.

	22-05-2003 02:00									#80
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Well massive drug use in his later years (Hitler was a major hypocondriac with a quack doctor) didn't help his effectiveness any...

	22-05-2003 02:00									#81
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I thought it was a good series. It's strange to notice some of the simalarities to today. I heard the following references: (I'm paraphrasing)

"Are you with us or against us?"
"Our homeland is under attack and we must fight this terrorism"
"Some civil rights must be suspended in the interests of security"
"Do you swear to uphold the office of [Chancellorship] so help you God?"

	22-05-2003 04:43									#82
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I'm still not sure if Hitler's straight anyway..not after I read a book on the subject of his homosexuality last year. I guess it's too inconclusive for that possibility to be featured in any movie/miniseries like this one though....

	22-05-2003 05:58									#83
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quote: When and why did he stop being brilliant and become stupid?

Brilliant people are capable of stupidity
Stupids are capable of brilliance

We're all humans. We're dont make 100% brilliant choices, 100% dumb.

	22-05-2003 07:45									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: When and why did he stop being brilliant and become stupid? You do realize that there is a difference in being brilliant politically and being brilliant militarily... or do you believe they are the same? And thus, I guess you'd be in favor in all of the brilliant generals to rule countries or the brilliant politicians to run the nitty-gritty of armies?

Well spoken Imran...i agree entirely....

One could really say he bit off more than he could chew when it came to the russian...but most men on the brink of victory become overconfident.

the story did lack goering.......which is surprising ..b/c goering was by hitlers side all the time

	28-05-2003 07:28									#85
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this thread is kind of far down there.

But is it true the miniseries talked about the rise of the nazi party to combat terrorism?



talk about a non-subtle political message. That alone makes me not want to watch it.

	28-05-2003 09:09									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident this thread is kind of far down there. But is it true the miniseries talked about the rise of the nazi party to combat terrorism? talk about a non-subtle political message. That alone makes me not want to watch it.

The comparison could as easily be extended to the US support of OBL and his mates in the 1980s. Those who make deals with fanatics in the name of expediency often get more than they bargained for.

	28-05-2003 11:05									#87
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support of OBL? never heard that one. Hussein is a different story however.


basically what they are saying is the current administration is like the nazi rise to power

plain stupid. In 6 years we will have a democrat president and everything will be back to normal.

	28-05-2003 11:30									#88
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The more you look into Hitler's life, the less you find. There was just this big emptiness at the core of the man.

Just about all his ideas were borrowed, he seemed incapable of love and normal human intimacy. He is just a void.

One thing that is remarked over and over by people close to him like Albert Speer is that they never really felt they knew him personally.

Interestingly, this is a trait that Hitler shares with Stalin. There were many similarities in their lives and personalities. If you want more details I highly recommend Alan Bullock's work: "Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives."

	28-05-2003 11:50									#89
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I think that is a decent representation.

So many people paint them as monsters and such. But I see them more as cold, calculating, and unfeeling.

	28-05-2003 12:14									#90
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It doesn't help to paint these people as monsters. If you are interested, Hannah Arendt wrote extensively about the "banality of evil", the capability of ordinary people for extraordinarily evil deeds. How stupid evil deeds are. How ordinary people like Hitler are. For one thing, in person he was incredibly boring. Talking mostly about himself for hour after hour and on the same themes for year after year. Being part of his inner circle was hell. Incredibly dull. You had to sit through Hitler's monologues night after night. The same claptrap every night.

Auschwitz was a real place under a clear blue sky. It was part of a huge industrial complex. Scary organ music didn't play in the background like in a movie about it. Many people worked there like it was just another day at the office.

The Commandant of Auschwitz told the Nuremburg trial that he mostly thought about his apple orchard as he went about his daily work. He never really thought much about what he was doing. It didn't trouble him.