20-05-2003 04:08									#1
	The Fresh Air: Team Structure Increase Your PM Length

Recently, it has become apparent that we need to do something about the way this team is being run, about how decisions are being made, and about how various members of the team contribute. This thread is a result of private chats the Consuls held last week with their ministers and to some extent even a response to the recent call for "getting people more involved".


The Cornerstones Of Our Internal Structure

We know we are not going to be very popular with this, but there is no point in veiling what we believe is fundamental to every functional team of 80+ members participating in a game with turns taking as little as 38 hours on average (56 turns in 90 days so far). This is not an SPDG where the AIs are happy to wait for all human debates and polls to come to an end. This is an intersite team game moving at a very fast pace. Often, if not usually, the time between a problem emerging and a solution having to be implemented is just days, sometimes only hours. That's simply not time enough to have a debate, formulate valid poll options, and hold a poll binding for the Consuls - especially as the situation changes or may change every 38 hours, quite often making the poll in part or as a whole irrelevant or based upon incorrect/outdated information.

Thus, we truly believe that what we actually need is more leadership, more "official/Consular" plans to debate, not more representative democracy. It was the Consuls' fault (mine, too, yes ) that they tried to stay mostly in the background, listening to ministerial and other members' suggestions and proposals, sort of "quietly" choosing the best or most widely supported course of action. It may have looked like they were playing "their" or "Ministers'" game, not paying attention to the voice of the people, even though exactly the opposite was true.


In order to change this, the Consuls feel the need to make the following cornerstones of our internal structure known:

1. It is the Senate having the ultimate power, being able to replace Consuls with a CoC call/vote.

2. It is the Consuls having the executive power, being responsible for issuing orders regarding ingame/outgame actions, formulating/enforcing long-term strategies, and coordinating the plans of the individual Ministries. They are supposed to base their decisions upon the input from the Ministers and other team members, using their best judgment to determine what the best solution to every problem being addressed actually is.

3. The Ministers, appointed by the Consuls, are supposed to be advisors to them, leading debates in their respective, clearly defined fields, developing plans following the general strategy outlined by the Consuls, doing their best to ensure goals set by the Consuls are not only achieved, but achieved in the most effective way. The Ministers are not supposed to make any top level decisions - that is what belongs to the Consuls. The Ministers should ideally cooperate with each other, but in case their PoVs/plans differ, it is up to the Consuls to set the preferences the Ministers shall respect and follow. It is not the Minister's job to deliver orders, nor to sequester help from other Ministers.


There are two crucial things to be implemented/changed in order to make this system actually work under some sort of a "legal" frame. First, as our current Constitution is at least ambiguous about who has the power to do this and/or that, we believe it's time to revise it thoroughly, reflecting the abovementioned principles in it. We should discuss re-election mechanisms, term lengths, even the distribution of power as outlined by this post, struggling to create a flexible and efficient system of government.

Second, the Consuls must formulate and submit for a public debate the Apolyton long-term Strategy plan (AltSp). This plan shall be heavily debated, with every member of the team being able to have his/her say. After the debate reaches its conclusion and the plan is precised, it shall be adopted through a poll as the strategy to be followed by both the Consuls and their Ministers. AltSp shall be subject to a revision/amendment every time one or more goals outlined in it are achieved or whenever the team sees fit. Just like the initial AltSp, revisions/amendments to it shall be adopted through polls.

In order to make the discussion as easy to follow as possible, there shall be three threads eventually posted:

1) this thread - for general discussion regarding the (revised) structure/system of the government

2) the Constitution revision thread - to be posted once input enough is gathered through this thread; shall include a precisely worded draft of the revised Constitution, so that we can discuss and hopefully adopt it in the end.

3) the AltSp thread - currently available; includes the draft of the AltSp, dedicated to the discussion about our long-term strategy, that would - once adopted by the Senate - be binding for our representatives, whatever system of goverment we finally implement.


We would respectfully ask every active member to comment in this thread on the proposal regarding the "distribution of power". If you agree to this system, post briefly saying so, please. If you don't agree, post in detail, please, explaining why and how you would like to see the team being run. To help keep this thread within the limits of a productive discussion, rather than an academic debate, make sure that your alternative proposal respects and reflects the speed which this game proceeds with, please.

Thank you. Looking forward to your posts.

Last edited by vondrack on 20-05-2003 at 05:00

	20-05-2003 04:28									#2
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Sounds good to me. As for polling, we can set some polls for things that are not of a time constrained manner. Or try to set them up ahead of time, so that when we get to what ever point in the game, that it deals with, we will be ready to implement it.

I am fully aware of the differences that this game has to the SPDG, from playing in the PTWDG. One of the reasons that I know that we have to do things a bit differently. If we go the route of how things are done in the SPDG, then things won't get done, or you will have to circumvent the stated processes to play the turn.

But this really sounds like the way to go for now.

E_T

	20-05-2003 04:53									#3
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As the Foreign Ministry is somewhat of a different beast entirely, and my discussion with the Consuls gave me the impression that things should continue running "as they were." I would like to state how I understand the new structure to be, and ask that the Consuls let me know if I am correct.

Foreign Affairs Minister advises the Consuls on all F.A. matters, and helps them make decisions.

All major decisions (Treaties, offers, policies, trades, etc) are to be either approved or dictated by the Consuls.

The Consuls will direct the FAM, who will then direct the staff of the Ministry (ambassadors, etc). The Consuls will not directly tell the Ambassadors what to do.

The FAM will continue to manage all "day to day" affairs and minor decisions made by the office.


I need to know how often the Consuls will give orders, how much the Consuls want to manage, and how much I am needed to manage. There is a difference between me just passing things by the Consuls for approval, and the Consuls instructing me to get something done.

Please let me know how you see this working.

--Togas

	20-05-2003 05:14									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Togas As the Foreign Ministry is somewhat of a different beast entirely, and my discussion with the Consuls gave me the impression that things should continue running "as they were." I would like to state how I understand the new structure to be, and ask that the Consuls let me know if I am correct. Foreign Affairs Minister advises the Consuls on all F.A. matters, and helps them make decisions. All major decisions (Treaties, offers, policies, trades, etc) are to be either approved or dictated by the Consuls. The Consuls will direct the FAM, who will then direct the staff of the Ministry (ambassadors, etc). The Consuls will not directly tell the Ambassadors what to do. The FAM will continue to manage all "day to day" affairs and minor decisions made by the office.

Yes, as far I am concerned, this is how I imagine things should work.

quote: I need to know how often the Consuls will give orders, how much the Consuls want to manage, and how much I am needed to manage. There is a difference between me just passing things by the Consuls for approval, and the Consuls instructing me to get something done.

As for this, I suggest we first hold a broad debate on the AltSp(™? ) in the other Fresh Air thread. If the plan ends up being formulated the way I expect it, you will have your "things to be done" defined quite clearly. More of a general policy to follow than a set of "orders" or "tasks".

Oh, BTW, the "clear definiton" of the Ministerial areas is one of the things I would also like to see discussed here. For the FAM, I would like to add the research to the list of his responsibilities - mostly because our own research is "needing attention" once in a blue moon only plus it is closely tied to our tech trading. Would you be willing to take that under your wings?

	20-05-2003 06:11									#5
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The Foreign Affairs Ministry is more than willing to undertake the role of directing our research.

I will endevour to poll on this issue at all times, as it's something that can generally be planned well in advance.

--Togas

	20-05-2003 13:00									#6
	Re: The Fresh Air: Team Structure Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by vondrack The Cornerstones Of Our Internal Structure

I'm under the impression that we're already functioning this way. To show you:

quote: 1. It is the Senate having the ultimate power, being able to replace Consuls with a CoC call/vote.

Con, G.3: The Senate has the power to take a proposal for Change of Command.

quote: 2. It is the Consuls having the executive power

Con, A.2: The Consuls have the authority to play the game.

quote: 3. The Ministers, appointed by the Consuls, are supposed to be advisors to them

Con, C.2, D.2, E.2: The Minister of (X) advises on...


Enough quoting from the Con for now. You're right that the COn might be a bit ambiguous now - it can be made more clear.

The creation of a (AltSp) is a very good idea. A lot of in-game decisions draw on our long-term strategy. However, the plan should be adaptable and flexible enough to be changed when the world around us changes.

	20-05-2003 13:14									#7
	Re: The Fresh Air: Team Structure Increase Your PM Length

double post

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 20-05-2003 at 15:45

	20-05-2003 15:13									#8
	Re: Re: The Fresh Air: Team Structure Get a bigger avatar today!

BFM, we are aware that the proposed "structure" is in fact nothing breaking new... just making sure that everybody understands that this is how things should work (especially considering the recent call/s for "more representative democracy") - the Con gives room enough to interpretations varying more or less from Consuls=Powers to Consuls=Players.

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster I'm under the impression that we're already functioning this way. To show you: Con, G.3: The Senate has the power to take a proposal for Change of Command.

Right - this point was stressed to make sure everybody realizes the following two ones entitle the Consuls with a very relative power, which is ultimately superceded by the power of the Senate.

quote: Con, A.2: The Consuls have the authority to play the game.

And:

Con, A.3: The Consuls have the authority to make final game decisions, but must act within the boundaries of the law.

But:

Con, A.4: The Consuls should follow legal minister orders unless forced by unforseen circumstances.

Which is in sort of discord with:

quote: Con, C.2, D.2, E.2: The Minister of (X) advises on...

It seems that the ambiguity in who's actually "calling the shots" (or: who is actually making decisions, or yet in other words: who is responsible for making decisions) lead to a friction among (some of) our Ministries... all of which was not fully visible in the forum.

The significant difference between the system of government in the SPDG and ISDG is another reason we (the Consuls) feel the need to expressly state these three points.

quote: The creation of a (AltSp) is a very good idea. A lot of in-game decisions draw on our long-term strategy. However, the plan should be adaptable and flexible enough to be changed when the world around us changes.

I did my best to outline more of a framework or an interim "goal" than a point-by-point plan... I believe this framework shall remain mostly fixed unless something really big happens in the ISDG world. We should not need to change AltSp every time there is a new city built or a new tech acquired...

	20-05-2003 15:48									#9
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You're right - the additions "must act within the boundaries of the law." and "The Consuls should follow legal minister orders" are a bit out of place.

	21-05-2003 05:14									#10
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I am fine logically with what has been posted... but we still need a way to get more people actively involved, and to have FUN!!

	21-05-2003 19:06									#11
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Is this all this team has to say on this topic? Does everybody agree? Does anybody disagree? Does nobody care?

Shall I go ahead and submit the revised Constitution?

	21-05-2003 21:17									#12
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I do agree with most what you've said. It's a good thing to point out the differences in pace between a game -vs- the AI and a true MP game.

	22-05-2003 04:46									#13
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Other than team structure, I have two ideas re process:

1) I understand that a lot gets covered in chat... can we get a log thread of the chats?

2) Would it be possible to schedule the actual playing of turns, with corresponding pre-turn and during-turn chats, preferably at a time that allows for max participation?

These would both allow for players to catch up on general discussion and strategy, an opportunity for the Consuls and Ministers to communicate / defend the short-term tactics, and provide greater opportunities for members' active participation (rather than just here in the forum). Of course, the final decisions would still follow the team structure and implementation processes.

AND, I have another idea on improving the fun factor:

Someone quite rightly pointed out that the PTWDG is more engaging partly cause we know each other, and thus can trash talk and personalize the competition.

Well, OK, so let's GET IT ON!!

I'm RL-time constrained, but if someone will come up with a PsyOps strategy for CFC, I think I am well-known enough over there, at least by the more veteran players, to have an impact.

Actually, there are proabably enough CFCers that visit the Strat forum that we could even do stuff there!!

Nothing shady or illegimated, mind you, just good-natured messin' around.

	22-05-2003 05:00									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus 1) I understand that a lot gets covered in chat... can we get a log thread of the chats?

Not sure... technically, probably yes. Though I should warn everybody feeling like reading these chatlogs periodically... You will get headaches, just like me...

BigFree, would you be able to post logs?

quote: Originally posted by Theseus 2) Would it be possible to schedule the actual playing of turns, with corresponding pre-turn and during-turn chats, preferably at a time that allows for max participation?

I do not think this is technically feasible. Saves arrive at various times of the day and we have about 4 hours on average to play our turn. That's not enough to call for an "organized" chat.

	22-05-2003 06:37									#15
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People should make themselves heard in the turn threads. Your words do make a difference. Take the recent choice of what to do with the settler, Mao the merc and 2 warriors on the approach to the site for Ironcity...

I proposed 3 options for people to express themselves on. vondrack rightly pointed out a 4th option I had not considered, but quickly said he did not favour it. On first glimpse, I recoiled at the risk involved with option 4 (#3 actually, since there was a #2a and b). Others came along and added some subtleties to option #3 and proposed ways it could be done while minimising risk. By the time I played the turn I saw that #3 was not so bad after all. In fact, when I thought about it, it was the option that we risked least with. Option #3 was carried out.

Your voices are heard. Each of you make a difference. Speak up!

	22-05-2003 09:10									#16
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Yeah, it's just the timing, and thus the lack of opportunities for participation when the 'action' is nigh.

I just can't be around enough, and usually find that the intensity has taken place without me. So all I get to do is read about it, sort of dry, after the fact.

I guess my point is that the vast majority of us got into this actually *playing* our own turns, and the better we can approximate such the more engaging this game will be for all.

	22-05-2003 19:55									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Not sure... technically, probably yes. Though I should warn everybody feeling like reading these chatlogs periodically... You will get headaches, just like me... BigFree, would you be able to post logs? I do not think this is technically feasible. Saves arrive at various times of the day and we have about 4 hours on average to play our turn. That's not enough to call for an "organized" chat.

I could for about 95% of the stuff that goes on there. But does everyone want to read that?

Maybe there can be one post than has links to the logs. I do have quite a bit. Let me know what you/the team wants.

	22-05-2003 20:24									#18
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As posting logs would undoubtedly be little fun, let's hear if/who is interested in reading them. Everybody, speak up - are you interested in reading chatlogs?

I know Theseus would be.

Anyone else?

	22-05-2003 20:28									#19
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That might be nice, but not if it means ANOTHER topped thread.

* Fried-Psitalon whines.

We already have too many, some of which have been inactive for quite some time. Can we unsticky a few of those, please? Maybe if half of page one weren't sticky threads, I wouldn't mind seeing a new sticky thread so much.

	23-05-2003 21:34									#20
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hi ,

you know what we need , more open threads to post in , ......

if an important thread reads in king size letters "dont post in this thread" then how can the people respond to it , how can the people then say how they feel , how can new ideas be formed it we cant talk about for example science , .....

have a nice day

	23-05-2003 22:09									#21
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The Science thread has a very clear link to the Science discussion thread, where you may express your ideas.

	24-05-2003 20:59									#22
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster The Science thread has a very clear link to the Science discussion thread, where you may express your ideas.

hi ,

why create two threads if it can be done in one , ....

it aint only the science thread , ....

some consuls dont even repond to a pm or an email , .....

people feel they are left out , ...

have a nice day

	25-05-2003 01:55									#23
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Someone is going to go on my ignore list very soon!

	25-05-2003 03:04									#24
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why read the chatlogs if you can just join the chat? Undernet actually has a nice web-based chat in their site in case you don't have mIRC.

and trust me, there's more than ISDG going on around there