21-05-2003 00:34									#91
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first let me suggest that it is possible to not want ones children to marry outside a group without hating those outside the group - especially when the issue is religion, and one is dealing with a religion like Judaism that explicitly bans intermarriage (Orthodox AND Conservative AND the majority of Reform rabbis) And one which, unlike Christianity and Islam, is small in numbers and always nervous about physical survival.

OTOH i myself have problems with Jewish parents who dont particularly follow the Jewish religion, and then get upset about intermarriage - I mean what do you expect folks? The best way to avoid intermarriage is to make your religion and culture something so alive and compelling that its part of your kids life - then they wont want to intermarry, or might want to share their religion with any friends they become serious about. If you make it only a tribal thing youre asking for trouble with a detribalized generation.

I would also say that i have trouble with any Jewish parents who are more upset about marriage or dating with a Muslim than with, say an Episcopalian. Jewish law bans both equally. While I can understand a discomfort level based on current events, i agree there is an element of bigotry in it.

As for dating vs marriage - I may be a hypocrite here, as I dated non-Jewish girls, yet I realize that encouraging Jews to date Jews is a key to preventing intermarriage. Again, I would say that the best way to insure Jewish survival is to build the positive, not to emphasize what can only look like a bigoted ban.

Let me simply suggest that this is a difficult issue, and one that require thought - especially at age 14. This might be an opportunity for a heart to heart talk with your mom about values and life - probably more valuable than much else you could have at this age.

	21-05-2003 00:41									#92
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jaguar - feel free to PM me on this.

	21-05-2003 02:21									#93
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I'm feeling much better now, cause it's always better after its been a while. Also I think my mom was a little high-strung since when she said that there had been 6 attacks in Israel in less than two days.

Noor is half-arab (Pakistan) half French. (Yea, I think the French also has something to do with it) She does not believe in any God, but "officially" she's Muslim for now.

She's not that much of a love interest, although she is attractive. But just a friend for now. (no cheesy Romeo and Juliet for me )

Another thing: my mom seems to absolutely adore other races. (I don't get the "why can't you get with a nice Jewish girl" speech.) She likes my hispanic friend and keeps hinting that she wants me to date her, my Japanese friend, and my black friends. It's just French and Muslims.

quote: I wonder if we'll see his politics changing over the next couple of months.

Doubt it. Although I still have some stuff I don't have an opinion on.

	21-05-2003 02:25									#94
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Just one thing, Pakistanis aren't arabs.

	21-05-2003 02:34									#95
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Chegitz:

I know some black girls whose mothers have sometimes been like, "You should get yourself a nice white boy."

Pakistanis are def not arab... they're far from it. also, JW, would your mom have a problem with you dating a black muslim? Is this issue their religion or their ethnicity?

quote: It's just French

That's understandable

	21-05-2003 02:36									#96
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I must honestly say, i also never understood people who are liberals, except when it comes to Israel. I don;t get the "except".

	21-05-2003 02:39									#97
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I must honestly say, i also never understood people who are liberals, except when it comes to Israel. I don;t get the "except".

perhaps they dont agree that their view of israel is particularly illiberal. Perhaps they feel that contemporary liberals have adopted unfair or illogical or simply uninformed positions. In any case thats easily discussed elsewhere, why dont we leave this thread to the personal concerns its trying to address, not mideast politics per se.

	21-05-2003 02:56									#98
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quote: The difference is to spot the religion that is tolerant of other beliefs and admit that it is taken on faith, rather than being the only possible "right" answer. In other words, some religions/belief systems are more dangerous and antagonistic than others.

Cruddy:

So why should we agree with your assessments of each religion?

I think a better way to state your point is to look at a religion that allows non-believers to co-exist with believers, that does not persecute those who do not agree with them.

It is not a matter of who is 'right' or 'wrong' but on how you will live with people you believe are wrong.

BTW, this is the approach favoured by Christianity, to love you enemies, to bless those that curse you. I don't think you'll find this in Islam.

Back on-topic, Ming's suggestion of "I expected better" sounds like a good response.

	21-05-2003 03:15									#99
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Obiwan, I was unprepared to go down that road. To me it is evident which are the more tolerant religions - but it doesn't really matter if there are zealots of any given religion who dismiss all others.

I wasn't making an assessment of ANY individual religion. All I was doing was pointing out that not all Muslims hate all Jews, as incorrectly stated by someone else. If you substituted the word "Israelis" for the word "Jews" in that original statement you got a far more factual statement.

None of this is helping JW - so one more point that could help him is that this Noor character is first and foremost an American. What religion she chooses (or none at all) is up to her when she's an adult. Of course the same goes for JW, but that isn't going to help relations with his Mom, is it?

Last edited by Cruddy on 21-05-2003 at 03:22

	21-05-2003 03:33									#100
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JW: Thanks for clearing some of that up.

Since it is only a friend, you mom's statements are worse, IMO. If you were dating her, it might be different, because most older people (and some younger ones too) consider dating to simply be a step to marriage. They don't really get the concept of casual dating (ie, no real intention to marry, just have some fun).

Though at least she's calmed down. That's good.