22-05-2003 20:01									#91
	Increase the size of your Attachments

We sort of are playing that way, except that GCA will provide the forces in which to "soften" up CDG before we attack them. I'm fairly confident that CDG will be after GCA sooner rather than later. Even if they dont' CDG's blundering already has sealed theri fate against us; they cannot be a match for us in 60-80 turns from now.

	22-05-2003 21:18									#92
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As for maptrading and telling GCA to attack CDG, I think those topics belong in another thread, so I will grab a quote from this thread and address it in the Gamecatcher discussion thread.

--Togas

	22-05-2003 21:58									#93
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Are 4 regs worth 3 vets? How about when you throw in the gold to maintain them over 50 turns?

It depends on when we strike. If we strike later then we have time to build the expensive Barracks early and build more vets. If not, then getting units out at all is more important. Around 1/2 of the units I had in the simulation were vets since Incensiy and Mingapulco were doing unit duty around the clock, and I got fairly lucky with promotions (6 vets, 1 elite).

	22-05-2003 22:52									#94
	Apolyton Simulation Conclusions Full PM-box? Change here!

Okay, here's what I learned from the Apolyton simulation I ran.

Just like CDG, the key to our success in the future is a large Worker force. We are further along than CDG on our expansion (we already have one city embedded in jungle), so it's pivotal that we get Worker pairs starting to chop the jungle ASAP, especially to provide Tripoli with some profitable tiles to work. I got Tripoli to become a rather big and productive city, but only because it had cleared tiles in the area to work.

Workers are our most important weapon at this point. Mingapulco will expand at a very fast pace if taking advantage of the Game tile. We will have to pump a couple Workers out of there to prevent it from getting TOO big (it reaches size 5 pretty darn quick). I produced mainly NMs in Mingapulco and Incensity to start off, since we have a lot of Warriors available to us right now, and Warriors are easier and cheaper to produce for upgrade later on ("oh, they want to attack, we can produce... 15 Warriors for upgrading by the time they reach us") while NMs are more of an investment and we can't produce many of those on a whim.

Republic made my GNP double. 20 turns after going to Republic, my GNP had virtually tripled. Lesson: get Republic AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Before Republic CDG in my simulation had similar GNP and Mfg. Goods. After Republic, Apolyton was had 2.3x the GNP and 1.5x the Mfg. Goods. Republic can make us a superpower on our continent (especially if our neighbors only go to Monarchy).

There are two periods which will make or break us as a civ in this game. One is our expansion into the jungle now to secure our place as a "world power." If we can chop jungle and place cities in balanced fashion where our cities can take advantage of newly cleared tiles and still maintain a good pace for clearing jungle, then we will be in a great position. The second phase will be after CDG's defeat... we will be in a GA (hopefully under Republic) with large cities and lots of Workers to clear jungle. If we can quickly assimilate their lands into our own, then we can ensure our place as a world superpower.

	22-05-2003 23:21									#95
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Trip, I am confused... or maybe misunderstanding you... This last post of yours - does it actually mean you are now cool with following (more or less) the AltSp as proposed in its thread? Like getting into Republic first (ASAP)? Waging war only then? In 60-65 turns?

Or were you able to REX/jungle-clear like crazy WHILE building up a sizeable force able to attack CDG in ~40 turns?

	22-05-2003 23:37									#96
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Trip, I am confused... or maybe misunderstanding you... This last post of yours - does it actually mean you are now cool with following (more or less) the AltSp as proposed in its thread?

Trip has realised that the plan we were following all along is actually pretty good. So now he's calling it "his simulation".




Dominae

	23-05-2003 00:00									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Trip has realised that the plan we were following all along is actually pretty good. So now he's calling it "his simulation".

But seriously... just like I gave big to nye for his first sim, I have to give the same big to Trip now for his efforts. If the most fervent proponent of an approach DIFFERING from the proposed AltSp eventually found out we would most likely be better off sticking to the proposed strategy, it is invaluable - since the result was obtained by someone with a "negative bias", someone actually looking for just the opposite result...



I just hope I am not reading too much into Trip's post, otherwise I am going to look pretty stupid, when he comes back and tells me I am missing the whole point.

	23-05-2003 00:27									#98
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You're missing the whole point, blast you!

The point is we need to mass as many libraries and temples as we can in an awesome, staggering cultural assimilation effort!

NOW GET TO IT!

	23-05-2003 01:45									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon You're missing the whole point, blast you! The point is we need to mass as many libraries and temples as we can in an awesome, staggering cultural assimilation effort! NOW GET TO IT!

Something is very wrong with this man.

	23-05-2003 01:50									#100
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon You're missing the whole point, blast you! The point is we need to mass as many libraries and temples as we can in an awesome, staggering cultural assimilation effort! NOW GET TO IT!

Exactly! This is what we picked Babylon for!

	23-05-2003 02:13									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Exactly! This is what we picked Babylon for!

hello,

...we should build more bowmen....

have a nice day

	23-05-2003 02:42									#102
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Trip, I am confused... or maybe misunderstanding you... This last post of yours - does it actually mean you are now cool with following (more or less) the AltSp as proposed in its thread? Like getting into Republic first (ASAP)? Waging war only then? In 60-65 turns? Or were you able to REX/jungle-clear like crazy WHILE building up a sizeable force able to attack CDG in ~40 turns?

We were all (myself included) unaware of how both teams' buildups would progress, when they would be completed, and the time to get to the Medieval Age (which CDG can in fact do before the end of the simulation).

I won't say that I agree or disagree. It depends on how CDG builds up. If they build up similar to the way I did, then they will be a much tougher opponent later on, around turn 65. If they don't, then they'll be weaker long term. It depends on what they do, which has always been my viewpoint. If they look threatening, then we pop them. If they make more stupid mistakes then we can build up til the sun explodes because our advantage will only grow. It depends on what CDG does.

	23-05-2003 07:01									#103
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Exactly.

I'm very much with Trip on this issue... if CDG optimizes, we need to go in sooner. If they don't, we can take our own damn sweet time.

Again, the key issue is monitoring CDG, outside of a simulation.

I suggest that our intelligence golks make this a top priority for the near- to medium-term, using every scrap of info available.

For instance: Who the hell is CDG? What are their leaders' game habits? Has any one of them ever commented in a thread on something relatively sophisticated, say, ralphing, for example? Are any of them rabid MPers?

In RL, whether in the military or in business, I'd have a 50-page 'competitor intelligence' report on these guys by now, and a comprehensive monitoring plan in place.

	23-05-2003 23:13									#104
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I think a lot of that information was collected in the past, but has been forgotten and drifted down to page 12 or so. I'll see if I can find the thread with the info.

	26-05-2003 11:16									#105
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I spent much of the weekend noodling around with the sim. These are the results I got trying for a large production base with all professional army (vets except for a few regs built earlier or while waiting for cities to grow.

I put a lot more emphasis on early workers and pulled a settler out of Mingapulco. It helps a great deal. All 4 Southern cities (1 through 4) built multiple workers. 2 of them then switched to small military production (Cats). 2 of them then set up for irrigation and settlers.

Here are Trip's results where CDG place cities optimally for short term warfare and build hoards of regulars.

code:
turn year    research City Sett Work Warr Arch Sprm Immt Hors Gall
 61   210         -      9    0   13    3    0   12   12    0    0
 66   110bc       -      9    0   12    3    0   12   14    0    0
 72    10ad       -      10   0    9    3    0   12   22    0    0

code:
turn year    research Gold City Sett Work Warr Merc Swrd Hors Gall Cats
 61   210   Mat in 05  412  11    0   21   11   11   11    0    2    0
 66   110bc Cur in 06  564  11    0   19   11   13   16    1    2    0
 72    10ad     in 01  455  11    0   17   11   14   23    5    2    1

code:
Bananatp 11
Apolyton 10
Mingapul 10
City5    10
Hispanic 09
Incensit 09
Tripoli  07 *could be 8 with a temple
City3    05
City4    05
City1    02 *03 with next growth
City2    02 *03 with next growth

	26-05-2003 11:26									#107
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One major change from my first run, I gave us Philosophy in time to research Republic after HBR and CoL. That would be the major change over the earlier emphasis on workers and a settler from Mingapulco. Wow, a big difference from these two things.

	26-05-2003 14:11									#108
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nye, would you be able to post the production figures for our cities once we trigger our GA?

	26-05-2003 14:39									#109
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Without much goofing around to redistribute, in 20ad...

code:
Bananatp 20
Apolyton 16
Mingapul 16
City5    16
Incensit 15
Hispanic 14
Tripoli  11
City3    10
City4    09
City1    05
City2    03 *Completed settler

	26-05-2003 14:48									#110
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Wow, I just love these numbers.

That's five cities able to produce 2-turn 30-shield units and two more cities able to produce 3-turn 30 shield units! That's 5*(6/2)+2*(6/3), NINETEEN 30-shield units in 6 turns! WOW!

	26-05-2003 14:52									#111
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All vets. I don't see CDG standing for long if faced by that, given their current building habits.