21-05-2003 05:05									#1
	How can you make war without violating the UN's laws?? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

How can you fight another country without violating the UN's laws? Are certain types of war legal, such as 'preventive'? Are police actions legal? Pretty much what I'm asking is how can a country fight another one and do it perfectly legally.

	21-05-2003 05:11									#2
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If the interests of the 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council are well aligned, any war can be made legal.

But they rarely agree with each other completely.

	21-05-2003 06:40									#3
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You can fight another country and do it perfectly legally by getting the other country to declare war on you. Of course, the UN might send in peacekeepers if you get too nasty and genocide-happy.

	21-05-2003 06:43									#4
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quote: How can you make war without violating the UN's laws??

Win.

	21-05-2003 06:46									#5
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Everyone violates its laws (except those sneaky New Zealanders, whom I believe are up to something) but the UN can't do anything about it.

	21-05-2003 08:49									#6
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What I'm asking is what is the legal process for declaring war? Do they draw up a security counsel and vote on it or something? If you declare war on another country is it legal?

	21-05-2003 09:09									#7
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: How can you make war without violating the UN's laws?? Win.

Yeah, right.

	21-05-2003 09:17									#8
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod What I'm asking is what is the legal process for declaring war? Do they draw up a security counsel and vote on it or something? If you declare war on another country is it legal?

I don't think the UN has ever declared a 'pre-emptive' war. IIRC, there were really only 2 times in which the UN formerly declared war against a country: Korea in 1950 and Iraq in 1990. Both wars were declared against the aggressors.

As I said before, the UN will only declare such war if all 5 permanent members of the UNSC are sufficiently pissed off at selected country(ies). But that scenario is highly unlikely since no country is stupid enough to mess around with all 5 simultaneously.

	21-05-2003 16:31									#9
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Be a sub-Saharan nation. Then no-one will care.

	21-05-2003 16:33									#10
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The UN couldn't even get round to stopping the genocide in Rwanda, I don't recall them doing much about Pol Pot either.

	21-05-2003 16:40									#11
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By making a resolution authorising it, as happened quite recently I believe.

	21-05-2003 16:41									#12
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Theres is always self defence, war is ok then

	22-05-2003 13:08									#13
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Have no natural resources, and attack country with no resources either.

Or be a super-power...

	22-05-2003 15:04									#14
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How can you make war without violating the UN's laws?

Both countries sign an agreement on entering the state of war.

--

It's beyond my imagination why a decent nation should want to make war. Being attacked is something different, because then entering a war isn't a free choice. (Maybe this is influenced by my definition of "decent nation" )

	22-05-2003 15:13									#15
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I think thats the idea (at least in spirit of the UN). No-one declares war, so peace prevails. Nice idea isnt it? Makes you really get irritated at those who would attempt to justify breaking it.

Was there an official declaration of war against Iraq? From US and or UK?

	22-05-2003 15:32									#16
	Re: How can you make war without violating the UN's laws?? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod How can you fight another country without violating the UN's laws? Are certain types of war legal, such as 'preventive'? Are police actions legal? Pretty much what I'm asking is how can a country fight another one and do it perfectly legally.

War in self-defence is OK, as is war if it has been determined by the UNSC to be necessary for international stability and/or to enforce prior resolutions. Other than that, it's not allowed. Unfortunately, all this has resulted in is states being more creative about what they call 'war'...

	22-05-2003 15:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's By making a resolution authorising it, as happened quite recently I believe.

Yep, as recently as 1991.

	22-05-2003 16:45									#18
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No, 2002.

	22-05-2003 16:53									#19
	Re: Re: How can you make war without violating the UN's laws?? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus War in self-defence is OK, as is war if it has been determined by the UNSC to be necessary for international stability and/or to enforce prior resolutions. Other than that, it's not allowed. Unfortunately, all this has resulted in is states being more creative about what they call 'war'...

Absolutely complete answer.
I only can add this:
http://www.un.org/Overview/Charter/contents.html
Read UN charter people. It explains everything and pay special atention to Chapter VII.

	22-05-2003 16:58									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's No, 2002.

Sorry but I trust the members of the security council that voted for it's opinion over yours.

	22-05-2003 16:59									#21
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Was there an official declaration of war against Iraq? From US and or UK?

Nah...they don't have balls for this, because they realize that is clear violation of UN charter that makes them criminals. They may call it as they wish, but it's still don't change the fact that this war is clear agression and violation of international laws, because UN charter defines such actions as agression.

	22-05-2003 17:01									#22
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Has anyone, anywhere, ever officially declared war on anyone since WWII? I don't know of a single case in which it's occurred...

	22-05-2003 17:05									#23
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What do you class as serious consequences in the national arena, Mike?

	22-05-2003 17:12									#24
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Has anyone, anywhere, ever officially declared war on anyone since WWII? I don't know of a single case in which it's occurred...

Me too, but it doesn't change the fact that all those countries that don not declared their wars officially, but in fact acted as agressors don't had balls for this, because it's clear violation of UN charter.

wtf I just said? Excuse me my English I am a bit drunk right now.

	22-05-2003 17:20									#25
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quote: Originally posted by elijah I think thats the idea (at least in spirit of the UN). No-one declares war, so peace prevails. Nice idea isnt it? Makes you really get irritated at those who would attempt to justify breaking it. Was there an official declaration of war against Iraq? From US and or UK?

I think an ultimatum was delivered a few days before the beginning of the operations.

	22-05-2003 17:28									#26
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This ultimatum was a complete joke. It's not the same as official declaration of war. With the same success I could make an ultimatum to G.W. Bush and demand that he must leave his office, because I don't like him and because I suspect that he is trying to conquer the world, otherwise I'll start war.
No one gave right to US president to demand regime change in independent countries.

	22-05-2003 17:29									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's What do you class as serious consequences in the national arena, Mike?

A three match ban and a hefty fine.

	22-05-2003 17:42									#28
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quote: This ultimatum was a complete joke.

More precisely, it was an ultimatum of the sort:
You've got 48 hours to leave your country. If you do not comply, we'll attack. If you do, we'll attack anyway.

	23-05-2003 06:27									#29
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quote: Was there an official declaration of war against Iraq? From US and or UK?

No, they defined the war as a 'police action'. It didn't bring any security though, that's for sure.

What about all of those commando operations, etc. the US has done in Latin America to put in those dictatorships?

	23-05-2003 12:49									#30
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Declarations of war were never issued in the course of covert operations like that, basically be definition; if they were accompanied by war, they ceased to be covert. Moreover, a lot of the time installing a dictator was just a matter of sending a big cheque and a few planeloads of arms to the local military and ask them to intervene on their own.