21-05-2003 19:39									#1
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3042983.stm

the deaths and cannibalism continue to occur. The UN force there seems to be impotent.

Maybe the Congo should start spreading rumours they have weapons of mass destruction...?

All in all it seems the stupid twittering about 'never again' is going to seem increasingly hypocritical as yet another country kills what will be millions of it's own citizens.

At least no one will be able to complain that this 'snuck up' on the world, or that it wasn't preventable.

Heck, the article speaks about the future and worsening, but I thought enough had died there already?

"United Nations officials in Bunia (Rwanda, 1994) warn of the possibility of genocide if a large contingent of experienced peacekeepers is not brought in swiftly"

	21-05-2003 19:41									#2
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker The UN force there seems to be impotent.

What else is new?

	21-05-2003 19:44									#3
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that's just because there aren't enough of them

	21-05-2003 19:45									#4
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well if the security council declare genocide evreryone is obliged to help, of course getting genocide declared is difficult. Clinton vetoed the use of the word in relation to Rwanda.

	21-05-2003 19:46									#5
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"There have also been reports of cannibalism, and witnesses have reported seeing fighters in Bunia with human organs draped on their weapons, AP said."

yuck

"The European Union said on Monday it was considering a UN request to send peacekeeping troops.

France has been asked to lead this force and provide a battalion with up to 1,000 troops. But it insists that other nations join the force and the deployment be for a limited period."

double yuck. whoop-dee-forkin doo a thousand doofs in a territory the size of northern Ontario. Plus it sounds like they will not risk their lambs on anything, it smacks of tokenism and rules of engagement that will make a Rwanda (i.e. a few hundred virtually unarmed UN surrounded by vicious militias, with UN telefaxes coming in daily demanding that soldiers not interfere in ongoing massacres).

	21-05-2003 19:48									#6
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It's in Africa. No one cares anyway.

	21-05-2003 19:55									#7
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I say let the Belgians handle it.

Then accuse them of war crimes in Washington afterwards.

	21-05-2003 20:24									#8
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The problem lies to much extent with the surrounding countries. There is (was?) an international war happening in DR Congo, and many local factions have been bought by foreign countries like Uganda and Rwanda. These countries have armed these factions (and maybe continue to do so), while these factions use them for their own genocidial agenda.

A solution could only be brought by having the neighbouring countries stopping to arm these factions, and to have an international peacekeeping force that makes sure the weapons are destroyed.

A significant food programme would help preventing the plundering at that point.

Unfortunately, to set up such a campaign, political will is required. Most of the French efforts in Africa right now focus on Ivory Coast, so France will refuse to pay the price alone.

	21-05-2003 20:26									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "There have also been reports of cannibalism, and witnesses have reported seeing fighters in Bunia with human organs draped on their weapons, AP said." yuck "The European Union said on Monday it was considering a UN request to send peacekeeping troops. France has been asked to lead this force and provide a battalion with up to 1,000 troops. But it insists that other nations join the force and the deployment be for a limited period." double yuck. whoop-dee-forkin doo a thousand doofs in a territory the size of northern Ontario. Plus it sounds like they will not risk their lambs on anything, it smacks of tokenism and rules of engagement that will make a Rwanda (i.e. a few hundred virtually unarmed UN surrounded by vicious militias, with UN telefaxes coming in daily demanding that soldiers not interfere in ongoing massacres).

Isn't tokenism the French and UN way??

	21-05-2003 20:30									#10
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Yes, and the US won;t go unless there is oil to be had! (aren't dumb ass steryotypes wonderfull!)

But sadly, DD is right, the West doesn't care about Western or Sub Sahara Africa.

	21-05-2003 20:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, and the US won;t go unless there is oil to be had! (aren't dumb ass steryotypes wonderfull!) But sadly, DD is right, the West doesn't care about Western or Sub Sahara Africa.

Oil??...Oil??... In Rwanda???

**Dials GWB on phone--"George, Do you want to play with the 4th ID for awhile?? Oh, and by the way Get Cheney to call Haliburton!" **

Yes dumbass stereotypes are wonderful!!!

...but sometimes true.

	21-05-2003 20:36									#12
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There is oil in DR Congo, but I think it's located in the stable area of the country, near Kinshasa. There is no need to ge to war for it, as long as the surroundings of Kinshasa are stable enough.

	21-05-2003 20:38									#13
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Spiffor, wasn't there heavy fighting in Kinshasa just a couple of years ago. I seem to remember something about a revolution??

	21-05-2003 20:42									#14
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Yes, Laurent-Désiré Kabila had ousted the old kleptocrat Mobutu to install his own dictatorship. Laurent-Désiré died in 2001 and his son took over, with a reformist agenda. The Kinshasa region and a significant chunk of DR Congo is under his control. But most of the country is in a neighbour-sponsored chaos, especially in the East.

	21-05-2003 20:49									#15
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Okay, I remember now. I didn't realize that Kabila had died however. I thought that his original power base was in the eastern part of the country though. Seems I remember him advancing from that direction and many of the army groups defecting to him on his way. Does his son not enjoy this same power base and if not, where does his power base come from?

	21-05-2003 20:57									#16
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Yes, his power base lied in the East of the country, but since Mobutu is gone, most of his easter supporters have split and have become the toys of the warring countries (including Kinshasa's DRC). I think the splinter groups now hate each other very much.

However, I've read about it a month ago or so, and those were two-years old articles. So I might have some wrong info

If you are interested, I've read about it in Le Monde Diplomatique. I think they publish in languages other than French too. Here's the thread which had me getting informed, and in which I posted directly after reading these articles. You can bump it if you want, toherwise the thread will plunge into the archive oblivion

	21-05-2003 22:16									#17
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we cant allow another Rwanda - France wants others in with them - well lets go in side by side with the French.


Never again!!!

	21-05-2003 22:19									#18
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There are Diamonds for grabs, people, fire up your engines.

	21-05-2003 22:22									#19
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Rwanda is a bad analogy. That was a two sided affair, not a multiple sided one, and in rwanda the slaughter was government organized and coordinated. DRC is an anarchich mess, full of all sorts of lunatics, robbers, fundies, and God knows what else. Plus Rwanda was small and in good shape infrastrcuture wise, so in theory a relatively small force could have done something. DRC is immense and the infrastructure gone, meaning that real porgress will mean significant resources spread coutnry wide. sadly this won;t happen. a few thousand troops might keep a few cities near the border with the other Congo safe, but they don;t seem willing to invest resources in the North, west, and South of the country.

	21-05-2003 22:25									#20
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The trouble with Western intervention in Africa is that it sparks cries of "Imperialism" from the other African countries. Never mind that their armies are heavily involved in raping DRC for everything they can lay their hands on.

My own feeling is that a better approach is say "yes, we're Imperialist because we don't like to see you chopping each other up".

If we're going to do this, let's not do it by halves, eh?

	21-05-2003 22:29									#21
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African Union led by Gadaffi is the only solution

	21-05-2003 22:36									#22
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Are you so sure peacekeeping troops can stop this? Usually peacekeeping troops are useless and often cant stop the gencide or what ever else is going on.

Africa is really messed up, big time. Sending in a few tousand peacekeepers want solve the problems, and I dont even know what will. Maybe the rest of world should just go in and take Africa over and rebuild it.

	21-05-2003 22:58									#23
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Rwanda is a bad analogy. That was a two sided affair, not a multiple sided one, and in rwanda the slaughter was government organized and coordinated. DRC is an anarchich mess, full of all sorts of lunatics, robbers, fundies, and God knows what else. Plus Rwanda was small and in good shape infrastrcuture wise, so in theory a relatively small force could have done something. DRC is immense and the infrastructure gone, meaning that real porgress will mean significant resources spread coutnry wide. sadly this won;t happen. a few thousand troops might keep a few cities near the border with the other Congo safe, but they don;t seem willing to invest resources in the North, west, and South of the country.

im thinking in terms of stopping the local genocide, not taking over the country and solving all its problems.

The rwanda genocide happned very fast - before citizens in the west could organize and act - in that context "realist" govts in both France and the US could check effective action. I am personally haunted that I did nothing then - it went by while i was busy with other things.

Granted rwandan style genocide has not taken place yet - but this is something the world community must be on the alert for, and begin to take steps to prevent.

And this is, perhaps, something where France and the US could join together, healing some of the wounds of the Iraqi crisis.

We have here an international forum - it is worthwhile that all of us speak of it here, and monitor the situation, and begin to spread pressure on our various govts.

	21-05-2003 23:02									#24
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the DR Congo is so large, and there are so many groups involved that ti would take huge resources to affect things there. I am all for the international community to do something in the Congo. But sadly i am also knowlegable enough on current politics to know that that people in the west are utterly unwilling to bear the actual costs of such operations.

	21-05-2003 23:15									#25
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One question I think about is why do Africans do this to each other? First they ignore AIDS and pretend it does not exist, along with several other problems they have down there. Most of those countries would rather send all there money on arms that they use in civil wars and gencide which end up destroying their countries in the end. Why do they do this?

	21-05-2003 23:19									#26
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Greed? Local 'patriotism' (tribalism)? Regular 'patriotism'
(pertaining to the current war in the congo, not AIDS)

	22-05-2003 00:10									#27
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quote: Originally posted by GePap the DR Congo is so large, and there are so many groups involved that ti would take huge resources to affect things there. I am all for the international community to do something in the Congo. But sadly i am also knowlegable enough on current politics to know that that people in the west are utterly unwilling to bear the actual costs of such operations.

the area is in the northeast, right across the lake from Uganda.

The Ugandans managed to keep the lid on with 9000 troops, and they managed to supply their troops.

9,000 international troops should be able to do almost as well. There are now 700 Uruguayan peacekeepers, and their not enough. France has offered 1,000 but wants others to go along. That means scraping together another 7,300 troops.

This should be doeable, folks. Perhaps a first effort for the EU defence force?

	22-05-2003 00:13									#28
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from the BBC

"British officials say what is being talked about is a short-term operation to fill the gap until South African and Bangladeshi troops arrive in July or August to reinforce the existing UN contingent. "

	22-05-2003 00:14									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www One question I think about is why do Africans do this to each other? First they ignore AIDS and pretend it does not exist, along with several other problems they have down there. Most of those countries would rather send all there money on arms that they use in civil wars and gencide which end up destroying their countries in the end. Why do they do this?

for hundreds of years Europeans did this. Short answer is that they havent made the economic and political transition that happened in Europe.

	22-05-2003 00:18									#30
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A UN force is desperately needed, but given Congo's large size and population, the force needed would be enormous. Peacekeepers would probably need to be able to use heavy armour and aircraft, to make up for the lack of numbers.

A permanent peacekeeper force would be ideal for this sort of task, since it wouldn't be dependent on public opinion at home.