21-05-2003 23:00									#1
	Vox's iron colony Got spare money?

Right now Vox seems to have only one immortal defending its iron colony area. If we would bring back our two galleys, load them with a settler and pikes, and land them on the grassland, we could absorb Vox's iron colony before they can do anything about it. (A third galley from Hurricane and a total of five pikes in the invasion force would do even better.) Vox would have to take the city before they could rebuild their colony, and with a free barracks and rush-built walls, that would not be easy even on flatlands.

And if we do the Inchon landing while Vox is still trying to cope with that, Vox will suddenly find itself facing two major incursions instead of one - and having to deal with threats on a total of three fronts: Inchon, the colony, and Dissidentville. Even if Vox can mount a successful conterattack against one of our incursions, the other will make sure they're crippled.

This strategy would preclude our starting the Colossus in the next few turns. But it would put us in a much stronger position to start a prebuild for Leo's in a reasonable amount of time, and shoud reduce the total cost of the war considerably.

	21-05-2003 23:24									#2
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So now we're talking about an amphibious pincer move (sorta)?

How many galleys do we have right now? 2 in the East, 2 in the West, or did we build a 3rd Eastern galley too? I forget.

I like the idea. Both landings at once might really overload them. They could probably nail the forces we land on flatland, but if we succeed in getting troops up on that hill (questionable... if I were them and I saw GS galleys, I'd probably cover that hill so GS couldn't land there), they're screwed.

-Arrian

	21-05-2003 23:27									#3
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I was just looking at the map ("Maps of the known world, 730bc" thread, down on page 2, which I think I'm gonna bump, because it's useful for general strategy discussion) and it occurred to me that if they deny us the hill I want to use for Inchon, there really isn't anything stopping us from proceeding northward to land on the hill that is a couple of tiles NW of Eliopolis, or even going further and landing next to Wittlich, on the doorstep of The Voice. We should be able to keep out galleys out of sight in the sea tiles until we are ready to offload them.



-Arrian

	21-05-2003 23:34									#4
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Currently four galleys in the west (including a new one built last turn that's a couple turns behind the others but only one turn behind our settler) and two in the east.

Edit: Doublechecking, I'm almost sure the fourth western galley could participate in Inchon without delaying it. Both landings could take place in as little as four turns, embarking units on the third turn and landing them on the fourth.

Last edited by nbarclay on 21-05-2003 at 23:40

	21-05-2003 23:40									#5
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Ah. So 6 total.

Do you think it's best to use all 4 Western galleys in the Inchon operation, or should we use the northernmost one as a scout to keep our info up to date on the coastline, and use the rest (3) for the landing forces (which would give us 5 units & a settler)?

Both Eastern galleys would have to withdraw and load, and that means we won't see what's going on up there for a bit, plus with only 2 of them, the Eastern landing has a pretty good chance of getting defeated (doesn't matter to me, really, if that takes the heat off of Inchon and thus ensures its success).

-Arrian

	21-05-2003 23:44									#6
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Note that I edited my post above.

I definitely want all four western galleys involved in Inchon. Even seven units accompanying a settler would face a risk of successful Voxian counterattack by the time we could reinforce them.

	21-05-2003 23:52									#7
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Have we gotten a view of Dissidentville 88 or 888 yet? If they have 888 open, we should land a few Pikes there ASAP. I think we can spare 4 Pikes from Arashi/Tempest now, as by the time they could be threatened again we will have built enough to replace them.

If we can catch Vox with their Iron unconnected and pillage that road (D888), it turns the war completely in our favor. We can land in 3 turns if it's open.

2 galleys move to Monsoon 4 where Vox can't see them. The units we are going to load move to Monsoon 2, to stay out of sight and within loading range. The northernmost galley moves 9888 to 'threaten' a landing in Vox's core. It will be on Elipolis' border and get a view of Dissidentville 88, 888, and Grog mountain on the way.

The next turn we load the units into our 2 galleys, and move the galleys north. Vox won't see where they started unless they move a unit onto the flats by Monsoon (unlikely) and won't see where they end up unless they have a unit on Dissidentville 87 which we would see with the first Galley unless they move it there that very turn after we pass.

Then we land 4 Pikes on Dissidentville 888 if it is undefended the next turn. If they can't land, we wait for the next Galley that brings Inchon's Settler. If we do land, we can pillage the road, and then load the surviving units back on the ships for Inchon.

	21-05-2003 23:56									#8
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Nathan,

Fair enough. Would you go with all pikemen + settler? Or maybe 1 attack unit (med inf) to beat up on incoming immortals? I like the idea of having 1 vet med inf along for the ride.

I assume we would load the galleys from Monsoon. We'll have to be careful that their forces in the mountains (if any) can't see our galleys when we do that.

EDIT: Crosspost with Aeson (now reading)

-Arrian

	22-05-2003 00:03									#9
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To be clear on the Inchon fallback plan...

The Northernmost galley heads back south on turn 3 regardless. Only one of the 2 galleys with units moves to see D888, and the other stays where it is if the tile is blocked. If it is blocked, the northernmost galley moves to pick upthe 2 units in the unmoved galley, which then moves back to Monsoon 4 to pick up more units. The southern galley and Settler would have just made it past Whirlwind.

	22-05-2003 00:06									#10
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- blah

	22-05-2003 01:59									#11
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I'm not gonna comment on this plan yet, I'm too tired to read straight.

On another topic:
Vox has an immortal fortified on the iron mountain near D'Ville. Do you think that they're going to try to grab that iron?
There are two ways to achieve that goal. One is by roading the tile and building a temple in D'Ville, the other is by establishing another colony. In both cases we can take the iron back culturally (we can build culture faster than they can because we can cash-rush buildings)... so what is Vox thinking? Could be a Voxian mistake here, could be something I haven't thought about.

	22-05-2003 02:22									#12
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They probably just don't want to give us a free mountain to move troops onto.

	22-05-2003 03:30									#13
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But it's also a nearly instant iron colony for a time until we can take it.

If we do the Eastern thing, we may want to time it so that Monsoon's borders expand on the turn we land, or the turn after so that Vox is left with no reprieve.

	22-05-2003 04:16									#14
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The eastern mission will not be successful IMHO- we are talking about taking a colony- which then could be rebuilt in one turn- and an untimely death for 3 or 5 pikes, which i hardly believe would survive for more than 2 turn after landing- too soon to enjoy the benefits of walls, not to mention the lost settler and the symbolic Voxian victory.

I suggest that we use our suicide commandoes to hit as much as Iron Jungle road tiles as possible- at exacly the same time we land at Inchon, and make a push around D'ville- this gives us a decent chance at destroying 2 road tiles, which could take Vox a while to recover.

Here's a pic of what i had in mind:

	22-05-2003 04:25									#15
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Posted this in the wrong forum, moving:
This might seem obvious to some, but I'll say it anyway: if and before we land in that grass tile, we absolutely have to make sure that there are no immortals 4 and 47 of the iron colony (this may be just a trap).

And yes, I agree with Zeit.

	22-05-2003 07:00									#16
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Zeit amd Shiber, I think you're underestimating pikes' ability to defend against immortals. With pikes unfortified on grassland, the ratio is an attack of 4 vs. an effective defense of 3.3, so we'd probably even have the advantage against regular immortals. And remember that the moment we build a city, we get a free barracks to help our troops heal.

Further, Voxian immortals 4-7 from the colony could hit Inchon the moment our troops land there, and troops 4 from the colony could hit the turn after, still before Inchon's walls are up. If we land by the colony with a settler and five pikes, either Vox sends those troops to attack Inchon anyhow, meaning that few if any Voxian immortals could go after the colony landing before it gets a city built and walls up, or Vox goes after the colony landing and fewer of Inchon's defenders get attacked. Either way, we come out ahead. (And we could even withdraw our survivors back into our galleys if Vox focuses on the colony raid and causes too much damage.)

	22-05-2003 12:45									#17
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Yes, you're right... the chances of a regular immortal defeating a vet pike on grass are 43.7%.
I'm starting to like this plan.

	22-05-2003 13:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay And we could even withdraw our survivors back into our galleys if Vox focuses on the colony raid and causes too much damage.

We could still blow the settler, taking out the colony, then blow the city. Oh, and have one pike pillage the road for good measure...

Thinking of that, maybe we should send a horse/chariot if we have room for 5 combat units. Can blow the road and reload on the boats...

	22-05-2003 13:32									#19
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BTW, do you think Vox will scream for peace the turn we land?

Would we settle for Eliopolis and all south? Recent polls seem to indicate a majority would. Do you think we can win a decisive victory simply on manoeuvre? That would be something!

	22-05-2003 13:50									#20
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I would demand lots of gpt as well, to prevent Vox from having a real army (unless they receive funding from other civs, of course).
I agree though, it would be very cool if we can do that.

	22-05-2003 16:00									#21
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I'd rather have an extra pike to help avoid the need to retreat than a fast-mover to pillage and then retreat. If we can hold, Vox can't rebuild the colony.

By the way, I'm tempted to switch Whirlwind over to building a galley and rush it after another turn. That would give us five galleys to land a total of ten units on the western front, which would probably make an Inchon landing on flatlands practical if Vox has the hill blocked but leaves a possible landing site on flatlands open. And if we can get a settler with six pikes and three vet MedInfs on the hill...

	22-05-2003 19:52									#23
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If the Inchon landing succeeds and we get to build the city on the hill, their iron will be cut (at least to their core empire). Only Dissville would still have iron.

That's one of the reasons I wanted to throw most of our effort into Inchon. I look at the other landing as a diversion, with the settler almost being like bait. But if we manage to build a city over there and keep it, so much the better.

-Arrian

	22-05-2003 20:00									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian If the Inchon landing succeeds and we get to build the city on the hill, their iron will be cut (at least to their core empire). Only Dissville would still have iron.

Yes, but this is the same situation as now... D-ville has the iron, the rest of the cities probably not (Elipolis perhaps).

quote: That's one of the reasons I wanted to throw most of our effort into Inchon. I look at the other landing as a diversion, with the settler almost being like bait. But if we manage to build a city over there and keep it, so much the better.

Agree. However, if we could keep the settler, the city it builds would be the perfect spot, we need to build a city there anyway. Inchon is not so ideally placed, IIRC. (It will be okay, I don't think we'll need to move it later). You could argue which city is the bait, and which the real target... but with a bit of luck we should be able to keep both cities defended.

DeepO

	22-05-2003 20:09									#25
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One difference that we'd have created with Inchon though is that it is that much harder for Vox to get their warriors to D'ville to be upgraded to immortals. We get a chance to pick them off while they are in their helpless larval stage. Plus we don't know for sure that e.g. Elipolis isn't detached from the core and connected to the iron, and is the source of upgrading, in which case Inchon again cuts them off. Inchon looks like the best bet for cutting iron supply and forcing Vox to keep a reasonable military presence in yet another position.

	22-05-2003 20:46									#26
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Vulture: I was about to post the same thing but you beat me to it

	22-05-2003 20:51									#27
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A couple turns ago, one of our galleys saw a couple warriors on their way to Dissidentville for upgrade. One of the big reasons I like the idea of an eastern landing is that we might be able to trap multiple warriors on their way south to be upgraded, whereas if all we do is cut off Vox's core, they can still upgrade whatever warriors are already in Dissidentville. That might not make any real difference, or it might stick Vox with three or four warriors instead of immortals, conceivably even more.

Last edited by nbarclay on 22-05-2003 at 20:56

	22-05-2003 21:04									#28
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Agree on the other strategic position of Inchon. Which is why we need both cities, Inchon for damaging their reinforcement lines, Inchoff for cutting their iron for sure, and general annoyance.

Let's fantasize what Vox would do if it sees 2 surprise landings, both threatening their iron. Let's say 3 pikes and a settler East, 5 pikes, a settler, and 2 med infs West. Let's assume they have some 20 immortals remaining, most of them regs, and dispersed trough their empire so they can's use all of them against any target they like.

If I see such a situation, I would most likely do 1 of 2 things:
- either retreat / regroup my troops, trying to hold off for the immediate future, buiding warriors, and arranging some way of getting iron from someone else.
- possibly after regrouping, attack GS. Attacking both landings sucessfully seems not possible, or a very big risk, knowing not one WC nor cat is present in the invasion. They can imagine that another invasion - over land or over sea - is close.
So, if they attack, it either has to be one of the cities (Inchon), or a surprise attack on our territory. D-ville is lost anyway, and they know it, so if they see we're invading them while still not totally overpowering them in mil force, they could empty D-vill, and go for Arashi or SS instead.

I think that by invading with two cities, we're almost certain that at least one of them survives (Inchoff most likely), so we should do it the moment we can.

DeepO

	22-05-2003 21:12									#29
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By 'Inchoff' did you mean 'Inchon' - or is that your proposed name for the eastern city?

	22-05-2003 21:13									#30
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it's my proposal... makes sense

DeepO