23-05-2003 09:56									#211
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Yes... because I had no idea what People v. Staples was . Staples v. US I do .

Findlaw is a site that has SCOTUS decisions (and not much else). www.findlaw.com . I tried to find People v. Staples there to no avail, but then I remembered Staples v. US.

I try not to use Westlaw for arguments, because it creates too much reading for me . School is over for the summer for me, I don't need more legal reading under August

	23-05-2003 10:00									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I try not to use Westlaw for arguments, because it creates too much reading for me . School is over for the summer for me, I don't need more legal reading under August

Ah, a law student?

	23-05-2003 11:13									#213
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I love the smell of a state immunity debate in the morning. Just to correct some errors:

chegitz guevara:

"The Constitution has never even been ratified by the people of the US. IIRC, we're the only Constitutional government in the developed world to have that honor."

Not at all. The German constitution was ratified by 11 of the 12 states. The Austrian constitution was adopted by the constituting assembly. Japan and UK. Not sure what the dutch did with the last full revision.

Imran:

"The US federal branch is an outlier in the world. In no other country is the federal government so restricted."

If you mean by the constitutional text, it's debatable. If you mean in constitutional practice, not at all.

"He doesn't look at the text, but more to the intent behind the words. That is what Natural Law is about, right? I've never heard Natural Law and Textualism co-exist peacefully before."

Huh? Intent (be it historical, be it telos in text) is a general method of interpretation that per se has nothing to do with natural law. The two can only coincide if the historical legislator sought to implement natural law (to some extent your constitution, or our civil code). The actual 180 degree opposite to natural law thinking would be positivism.

	23-05-2003 11:15									#214
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And when I'm at it, can someone answer my parade permit question?

	23-05-2003 11:23									#215
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quote: "The US federal branch is an outlier in the world. In no other country is the federal government so restricted." If you mean by the constitutional text, it's debatable. If you mean in constitutional practice, not at all.

Ain't that the truth, we have a bureaucracy that even the former Soviet Union would envy.

	23-05-2003 11:25									#216
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Berz: Europe has us beat hands down when it comes to bureaucracy.

	23-05-2003 11:28									#217
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Doesn't Japan have the best?

	23-05-2003 11:32									#218
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Berz: Europe has us beat hands down when it comes to bureaucracy.

If we include central, state/regional and local, I very much doubt that.

	23-05-2003 11:37									#219
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler And when I'm at it, can someone answer my parade permit question?

HO, I thought we did answer it. In order to be constitutional a permit ordinance has to have defined criteria for granting or denying the permit. The criteria must not allow the clerk to grant, deny or vary a fee based upon the content of any demonstration.

This means that if the applicant fulfills the requirements of the criteria, the clerk must grant the permit.

	23-05-2003 11:38									#220
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler If we include central, state/regional and local, I very much doubt that.

The current threadjack is about the central government. Sorry.

	23-05-2003 11:39									#221
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No Ned, the crucial question is not whether the permit has to be granted, but what happens if it is NOT granted.

That's the difference between a concession and a notification system, and we consider the former to be the hallmark of the police state, the latter that of a democracy.

	23-05-2003 11:40									#222
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The current threadjack is about the central government. Sorry.

But we're hopping to another, are we not?

Anyway, simply including your federal tax law and the IRS should make yours worse.

	23-05-2003 11:48									#223
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler But we're hopping to another, are we not?

Who can keep up?

PS Why does Austria still have a Navy? That seems like a monsterous case of bureaucratic inertia.

	23-05-2003 11:51									#224
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"Why does Austria still have a Navy?"



You should rather ask, why do we still have Hofräte.

	23-05-2003 11:57									#225
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HO, if the permit request fulfills all the criteria and the clerk does not grant the permit,there are two potential course of action. The first would be an administrative appeal within the local government. Once those remedies, if any, were exhausted, the second would be an appeal the form in action in court for a writ of mandamus requesting that the court order the clerk to fulfill his ministerial duties.

	23-05-2003 11:59									#226
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How long does that take?

	23-05-2003 13:05									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's a liberal but reliable news source. I listen to the radio program occasionally.

My regard for you apparently knows no floor. I listen to this show sometimes on my way home from work, but strictly for comedic purposes which it fulfills admirably.

	23-05-2003 14:02									#228
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If the police showed up at your house with a building inspector, who declared your home condemned so the police could enter right then and there, would you be a tresspasser? LotM, you don't need a permit to occupy your own building.

What you need to occupy (as in live or work in) a building legally is a certificate of occupancy, which basically says that the place is legally habitable in regards to building codes etc.

Btw, I agree that this police action was on the line of legality if not over it from the information presented so far. If they had some intelligence that wasn't presented to the press as to why they feared what this group was up to it might sway my position though.

	23-05-2003 14:06									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon **** America. Well that's my two cents. At least that's what all us commies are supposed to say.

Yea, but you are supposed to say it in a Walmart in Fayetteville Arkansas and promptly get your butt kicked.

	23-05-2003 14:10									#230
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic Also, www.michealmoore.com He is a liberal pundit, whose straightforward approach won him an Academy Award for Bowling for Columbine. If you want to find out about violence in the US, or why our attitude differs from the rest of the world see that movie.

Check out these links for a critique of Moore's methods and a rebuttal of Moore's conclusions. I have always thought Moore was an as$, though an amusing one. This stuff lowered my opinion of him greatly:

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel040403.asp

http://www.co-freedom.com/2002/11/bowling.html

	23-05-2003 14:30									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander What you need to occupy (as in live or work in) a building legally is a certificate of occupancy, which basically says that the place is legally habitable in regards to building codes etc.

What does that mean? If I buy a home, I have to get a certificate that it is "legal"?

	23-05-2003 14:37									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Check out these links for a critique of Moore's methods and a rebuttal of Moore's conclusions. I have always thought Moore was an as$, though an amusing one. This stuff lowered my opinion of him greatly: http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel040403.asp http://www.co-freedom.com/2002/11/bowling.html

I think it's brilliant, what's your problem? Moore is an Eulenspiegel. Is it a cultural difference that it seems he can't be seen this way in America?

	23-05-2003 14:48									#233
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler What does that mean? If I buy a home, I have to get a certificate that it is "legal"?

It usually passes hands with the property without any further action by the government, ie if I bought an old house I would receive the certificate of occupancy with it, and there would be no action by the city / county, even if the house wasn't technically up to modern codes. If I later attempt to modify the building, or if the house is deemed a hazard (by the police, health department or fire department) I will have to bring it up to the standards of the building code in order to live in it or rent it to someone else.

	23-05-2003 14:52									#234
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How does that work? You get a building permit, you build a house. Is there a certification process once the house is finished that results in the "certificate of occupancy"?

How long is it valid? What is the consequence of not having a cetificate? I can't imagine lack of it really eliminates protection against searches without warrant.

	23-05-2003 14:56									#235
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quote: I think it's brilliant, what's your problem? Moore is an Eulenspiegel. Is it a cultural difference that it seems he can't be seen this way in America?

My main problem is he got an Academy Award for a documentary. The Academy's own standards require the documentary to be a work of non-fiction, Moore's work was fictional and deceitful, which seems to be par for the course Moore plays...

	23-05-2003 14:57									#236
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Well calling it a documentary is a real stretch.

	23-05-2003 14:59									#237
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler I think it's brilliant, what's your problem? Moore is an Eulenspiegel. Is it a cultural difference that it seems he can't be seen this way in America?

I'm not sure what an Eulenspiegel is. My problem is that this work (Columbine) in particular is treated as if it is a documentary and won best picture as a documentary even though it doesn't meet the standards of a documentary. It gives Moore an authority that he doesn't deserve for making a peice of propoganda that serves his interests while pretending to serve the interests of the public at large. Moore should simply realize that he is a comedian and his politics are the joke, and then learn to love himself for that. But like the narcissist he is, he is sure that he is right and that everyone will thank him later for whatever he had to do to get them to come over to his side. As Brian Eno once sang:

We are the neighbors,
the nosy neighbors.
We think just like you would,
we think just like you should.

A journalist (or anyone with a concern for truth) would lay out the facts and trust that people will use them to draw a more accurate picture of events than they would have been otherwise able to do.

	23-05-2003 15:07									#238
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Well one key aspect of Till Eulenspiegel, a famous figure in german literature, is that he imitates other people's behaviour and turns it against them. He is a fool - on the surface.

I see Moore as one of the few people on the left who has the same shamelessness in manipulating things that is standard practice on the right. But it seems the right does not recognize its mirror image, while the centrists and leftists seem to take him seriously?

	23-05-2003 15:09									#239
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler How does that work? You get a building permit, you build a house. Is there a certification process once the house is finished that results in the "certificate of occupancy"?

Yes. Here in Boulder there are a number of inspections that must be carried out before the place can be legally occupied, electricity, fire codes (for egress from bedrooms, fire detectors, access to fire hydrants, access for fire trucks etc.) plumbing, gas lines, and of course the soundness of the structure. It's a big deal.

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler How long is it valid? What is the consequence of not having a cetificate? I can't imagine lack of it really eliminates protection against searches without warrant.

AFAIK indefinitely, until you either get another construction permit to alter the building (in which case you open yourself up to the whole process again), or until it is revoked by one of the authorities (listed above) who has the right to do so under limited circumstances.

It can't be used as a free key into anyone's property whenever the government chooses, but the lack of a certificate does give the government the right to clear out anyone living (de facto illegally) there for safety reasons, and that process may open the door for a lot of other action. (EG, the police come to clear people out of the house, and while doing so stumble upon a methamphetimine lab, or some other obvious criminal activity.)

	23-05-2003 15:22									#240
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Well one key aspect of Till Eulenspiegel, a famous figure in german literature, is that he imitates other people's behaviour and turns it against them. He is a fool - on the surface. I see Moore as one of the few people on the left who has the same shamelessness in manipulating things that is standard practice on the right. But it seems the right does not recognize its mirror image, while the centrists and leftists seem to take him seriously?

Moore's film puts forward a lot of bogus facts, but honestly it is the way that he attempts to paint his "opponents" (he usually doesn't identify himself truthfully and they rarely realize that he is going to target them for egregious abuse through the use of editing) in the worst possible light that really bothers me. The fact that it is presented as if it is the truth is the icing on the cake. He could have a career as a talk-show host / pundit, but he would have to face real people arguing in real time. Instead we are treated to elaborate ambushes and told that they were simply meeting engagements where it could have gone either way, or even that Moore is just a simple guy who stumbled across some real idiots. He's a bully. Check out the film "Pets or Meat" for some simple people being ridiculed by this as$hole under false pretenses. It's the film that made me decide he was a jerk.