22-05-2003 04:50									#121
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quote: C'mon Sava, why would one group of people have a freedom to assemble on public property (btw, the 1st Amendment doesn't even mention where this freedom of assembly exists) but not others who are using public property to reach other assemblies? If I want to go to the park to visit with friends - freedom of assembly - why do protestors have a greater right to block me?

an assembly necessarily disturbs the right of others, who just want to pass the location where the assembly takes place. so your logic can lead to the conclusion, that there is absolutely no freedom to assemble.
a working democracy, however, is also dependent on the freedom of assemble. your right to pass the location collides with the right of the protestors in that case. thatīs why one need a balance between these rights. anything else would completely undermine the constitutional freedom.
in other words: sometimes you just have to take another way - in the name of your precious democracy.

	22-05-2003 04:52									#122
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No. Permits are required.
Doubtful they were authorized to trample worker's rights.

	22-05-2003 04:57									#123
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara By putting them in jail so they couldn't attend the protest. Also, their puppets were confiscated, which means they were prevented from engaging in a form or political satire. And please, while I know you want to deride them as commie, they're anarchists, not commies.

Why are you sticking up for a bunch of anarchists?

	22-05-2003 04:57									#124
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Attacking the left through screwing with housing is a well-refined tactic of the police. It goes back to the persecution of radicals in the 19th century. It's not a big suprise that the police continues to do so.

You know folks, the right to organize isn't absolute. But that doesn't mean the state can prohibit demonstrations arbitrarily. That's kind of what the right to organize actually means.

	22-05-2003 04:59									#125
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Slowwhand; you really need a permit for an assembly in America? even for assemblies in closed rooms?

	22-05-2003 05:00									#126
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quote: Originally posted by oedo Slowwhand; you really need a permit for an assembly in America?

Yes.

	22-05-2003 05:01									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why are you sticking up for a bunch of anarchists?

Some people care about the civil rights of everyone, not just the people that happen to agree with their politics.

	22-05-2003 05:05									#129
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark as far as i can tell the building was in violation, and the law required them to cease residence as soon as it was condemned. If i drive down the highway at 56 MPH in a 55 zone,with a bumper sticker that says "screw the cops" can i make a first amendment case that most people dont get stopped at 56MPH????

I think you could make out a civil rights violation if you could demonstrate that a "class" was singled out for enforcement. I am not sure about an isolated incident. Except here there should have been some reasonable notice and time to vacate without police action. I think the owners should have had some time to appeal the condemnation ruling, for example.

This almost sounds like the fair trial Jesus got. Arrested at 12am. Tried at 3am. Scourged at 9am. Crucified at 12pm. Died at 3pm.

Fair trial, my foot.

	22-05-2003 05:08									#130
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quote: you really need a permit for an assembly in America? Yes.

wow. interesting. we donīt need such a thing. it can happen that we have to respect certain conditions for an assembly, but generally everybody can assemble, whenever he likes.

	22-05-2003 05:15									#131
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes.

I can see where you might need a permit if you are going to block a major road, but if there was no place to protest without a permit or if a permit cost a lot of $, the permit procedure might be overbroad and unduly burdensome.

is there any case authority on point?

	22-05-2003 05:15									#132
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quote: Originally posted by oedo it can happen that we have to respect certain conditions for an assembly,

That's how it works.

	22-05-2003 05:24									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ned is there any case authority on point?

Thomas v Chicago Park District is the most recent case on point.

	22-05-2003 05:28									#134
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I was listening to Pacifica (a far left radio network) while they were screaming their heads off about this but upon hearing the entire article I can only say these guys have no clue what so ever. I mean you should have heard these nut balls raving. There spokeswoman sounded like she should have stopped smoking the pipe about a hour before the interview.

	22-05-2003 05:33									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Attacking the left through screwing with housing is a well-refined tactic of the police. It goes back to the persecution of radicals in the 19th century. It's not a big suprise that the police continues to do so. You know folks, the right to organize isn't absolute. But that doesn't mean the state can prohibit demonstrations arbitrarily. That's kind of what the right to organize actually means.

Ramo, they were squating in a condemned house. You may not know this but that is a crime. Also the neighbor who accussed the cops of planting evidience has since stopped talking and told reporters for NPR that he didn't see anything.

Something smells fishy with this story and it's not the cops.

	22-05-2003 05:38									#136
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Oedo -

quote: an assembly necessarily disturbs the right of others, who just want to pass the location where the assembly takes place.

Not inherently, two people can assemble without blocking others.

quote: so your logic can lead to the conclusion, that there is absolutely no freedom to assemble.

Freedom means the absence of coercion or constraint on choice or action. If I'm intentionally blocking you from walking by me, then I've constrained you. But if you walk on by without incident, I'm not violating your freedom. You say this freedom to assemble is not absolute, but public property confuses the issue because we all use public property while no one person can be identified as the owner. Is your freedom to assemble with your friends in your house absolute? Yes.

quote: wow. interesting. we donīt need such a thing. it can happen that we have to respect certain conditions for an assembly, but generally everybody can assemble, whenever he likes.

I think Dinodoc is referring to permits for large demonstrations, parades, etc, that will obstruct the normal flow of everyday business. The permits allow for the city to plan ahead with detour signs, etc, but yes, sometimes cities have used the permit process to deter politically unpopular groups from assembling.

quote: in other words: sometimes you just have to take another way - in the name of your precious democracy.

Trust me, democracy ain't mine and I certainly don't consider it precious.

Sava -

quote: Some people care about the civil rights of everyone, not just the people that happen to agree with their politics.

That's ironic, you defend left wing protestors blocking people but oppose abortion protestors blocking people.

	22-05-2003 05:42									#137
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quote: That's ironic, you defend left wing protestors blocking people but oppose abortion protestors blocking people.

not at all perhaps you should read my posts more clearly

quote: IMO, I think that police should be able to break up protests that block streets.

	22-05-2003 06:14									#138
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I did Sava, when I used the same example of abortion protestors blocking people on public property, you called it "assault". But when it comes to other protestors, leftists, you said they have the freedom to block others.

	22-05-2003 06:21									#139
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Attached is the recent Thomas v. Chicago Park District case.

Below is FN 2 from Thomas.

"Petitioners do not argue that the Park District’s ordinance fails to satisfy other requirements of our time, place, and manner jurisprudence, under which the permit scheme “must not be based on the content of the message, must be narrowly tailored to serve a significant governmental interest, and must leave open ample alternatives for communication.” Forsyth County v. Nationalist Movement, 505 U. S. 123, 130 (1992); see also Clark v. Community for Creative Non-Violence,"

In Forsyth, they charged a fee, capped at $1,000, that varied according the level of police the demonstration required. The Court held the ordinance unconstituional and said in doing so,

"Speech cannot be financially burdened, any more than it can be punished or banned, simply because it might offend a hostile mob."

Attachment: 00-1249.pdf
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	22-05-2003 16:20									#140
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If somebody stupidly places his site of employment near an area frequently used for peaceable assemblies (like the capital city of the US), then he should expect to be inconvenienced.

And if he's going to barge through my assembly and thus block people from getting to this constitutionally protected act, he should be charged with assault and possibly even civil rights violations.

* * *

See? It all depends on who's got the power, whose ox is beng gored, etc.

Ned, Oerdin, Slowwhand, Imran, DD, Berzerker, et al.: Would you be this complacent if we were still living under Bill Clinton & Janet Reno? Because you do realize that a government assault against one person's civil liberties is an assault against everyone's, right? Or do you think that you're somehow immune?

Your statements remind me a lot of responses by public officials throughout the South during the era of civil rights demonstrations. In Birmingham, for instance, where the authorities tried to break up the bus boycott because it led to people using commercially unlicensed vehicles for hire. Why, it had nothing to do with civil rights, just a concern for public safety!

Right.

	22-05-2003 16:58									#141
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quote: Originally posted by oedo wow. interesting. we donīt need such a thing. it can happen that we have to respect certain conditions for an assembly, but generally everybody can assemble, whenever he likes.

Germany? Yes, there is no permit requirement, just an obligation to notify authorities in advance according to the VersammlungsG, IIRC. With an exception for spontanious assemblies.

As for traffic problems: "Impediments to public traffic have to be accepted, as long as they cannot be avoided without detriment to the purpose of assembly" (BVerfGE 69, 315)

Are those US "permits" actual permits, or just a notification system?

	22-05-2003 18:05									#142
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The permits are a system for allocating resources. So there will be adequate police and emergency personnal on duty, so that emergency sevices will know what routes are temporatily obstructed, and so there will not be two assemblies trying to use the same space at the same time. The original term was parade permit.

	22-05-2003 18:09									#143
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Well the crucial question is: What happens when I file for a permit, and the authorities do nothing? Are we allowed to assemble, or not?

	22-05-2003 18:13									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker I did Sava, when I used the same example of abortion protestors blocking people on public property, you called it "assault". But when it comes to other protestors, leftists, you said they have the freedom to block others.

You obviously misunderstood what I was saying. Let me clarify. I was defending, in principle, the rights of all people to assemble on public property to protest. The difference between your abortion scenario is that there is intent to stop a specific operation. I used the term assault to describe if somebody was physically restrained from getting to the clinic. You twisted what I said and that is the source of confusion. If the "leftists" were blocking a Halliburton office or something, they would be just as at fault as the abortion people. Hopefully this will clear things up. I don't like it when people create fictitious double standards from a misunderstanding of my words.

	22-05-2003 20:00									#145
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Ned, Oerdin, Slowwhand, Imran, DD, Berzerker, et al.:

Does questioning the veracity of any site under the indymedia banner somehow equate with supporting the violation of others' civil rights?

	22-05-2003 20:20									#146
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OK, I have to say the whole questioning of media has gone too far. I still think Fox, and newsmax, are biased, but if every time someone posts soemthing from them, or indymedia, or all the other sources Che gave, and it turns into a debate of "they are biased", "they are not", then the usefullness of posting anythign not from a very small group of sources people can agree are not biased becomes nill, and then we become limited to the few sources.

I have yet to hear anyone really doubt the facts of the case (people arrested, building condemend, thigs found). Ife evryone agrees on the facts, then why continue tha arguemtn about sources, and just not continue to the argument about interpretation, which is what we are always arguing about any posted source anyway?

	22-05-2003 20:23									#147
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I only did that early in the thread. I've been mostly lurking since then because the thread has been fairly interesting. I was just curious how I got thrown in with the rest of that group in Clem's post.

	22-05-2003 20:33									#148
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Maybe Clem is a bit like the police in St Louis: he saw you were a member oft he Evil capitalists, and you got rounded up as a "usual suspect".

	22-05-2003 20:36									#149
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Germany? Yes, there is no permit requirement, just an obligation to notify authorities in advance according to the VersammlungsG, IIRC. With an exception for spontanious assemblies. As for traffic problems: "Impediments to public traffic have to be accepted, as long as they cannot be avoided without detriment to the purpose of assembly" (BVerfGE 69, 315) Are those US "permits" actual permits, or just a notification system?

HO, You might want to read that Supreme Court case I attached to my last post, just above yours. It describes permits, and when they are lawful and when they are not. If they are content neutral that effectively leaves no discretion to official as to when they can be denied, they are constitutional. Otherwise, they are not.

The problem I have here with what apparently happened is that they condemned the building in the morning, conducted a raid the same day and arrested many (for what reason it is not clear) so that they could not attend the protest. The picture Che paints seems to be enough for a constitutional violation of both the 4th and 1st amendments.

But of course, we have only heard one side of the story.

	22-05-2003 21:04									#150
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Just out of curiousity, anyone heard from MrFun?