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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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quote:
While I agree with your first sentence, I must add that East TN has one of the highest per capita PhD rates in the country. I know its hard to believe, but consider that The University of Tennessee, Oak ridge National labs, and TVA are all very heavy presences. You on the other hand should not assume that morons come from appalachia. This is very much a dated thought (with the exception of my ex-wife's husband, of course )
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I thought rural appalachia still had the highest illiteracy rate in the US?
But, for your benefit, I'll redefine my comment as "just one moron in Indiana". would that be better? 
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WRT panag...If you will look at the history of his posts as compared to what eventually is confirmed, it is uncanny. |
Huh, when I still read his posts they were usually disconnected fragments of sentences, normally ending with "come here and see for yourself".
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WRT, NYT...The editorial political agenda has spilled into the "spin" on factual reporting. The pressure to create news in the face of an abscense of fact has turned a once great publication into nothing more than tabloid jounarlism...sad |
That might be true for the domestic desk, which I usually don't read. But for international affairs (excluding the war on Iraq), I don't see any major difference between the reporting in the NYT and, for example, the swedish paper Svenska Dagbladet. It's quite a bit harder to quote DN, though, since few people here read swedish...
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
this statement would only apply to the general suffering of palestinians since 2000 and the new outbreak of violence, though even then, many Israeli tactics such as home demolitions should be roundly condemned by anyone who believes int he notion of inalliable human rights.
Ignored is the basic suffering, most importantly, the denial of palestinian civil rights, since not only 1967, but 1947, if not 1922.That suffering the pals did not bring upon themselves anymore than black brought upon themselves their suffering in this country. |
have you ever read what rights they have , .....
probably not , they have more rights then most people in some european countries , .....
you know who is responcible for the suffering they have right now , the people who spend money to make war , the people who funded the money behind today ship , the people in the bekaa from what ever so called group who smuggle heroin to europe and the states and one in a while bomb the northern parts of Israel , .... regardless if there are arabs or Jews or whatever on the exploding shell side , .....
the people that are to be blamed are the ones who fund terror , the ones that go out and buy for 25 usd a small pal flag to support chapter so and so , ....
the bloody foreigners who sit behind comp a world away and do zip nothing , only encourage and support terror , those are the people to blame , ....
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:28
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Sorry panag, but Bullsh1t! and all the use of
smilies doesn;t maike anything you say even remotey right, correct, or even meaningfull. Oh yeah, i see all those european countries with people living under martial law, their property taken or destrpyed without any compensation, people barred form being able to find work, go to school, people having to jump trough hoops to buold new homes, most likely being unable to get the permits.
The soviet contitution guaranteed many rights as well Panag, and that meant nothing.
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GePap, I have to respectfully disagree. Once the Palestinian government (in exile) took the position that Israel did not have the right to exist, then the Israeli's were forced to take steps to protect themselves. We should never forget that the Jewish population was vastly outnumbered and trying to survive in a country that is only 10 miles wide at some points. |
And what ever happened to asking those people, who made up the majority, if they wanted these others to come into land they saw as their own, and making a new state out of it? what, was giving a bunch of Arabs in 1922, or 1947 the democratic choice whether they wanted to be forced ot abandon thier homes or become second class citizens in a new state too much for a bunch of arabs to handle? and what about the third choice? getting to ive and rule their own lands, as they saw fit, without being told what would be done???!!!
this to me, and to many others, is the most basic point, the clear, undeniable, point. In 1922 (and then in 1947) the palestians were told by outsiders, what their future was. They were never given the right to chose democratically, if they wanted to allow hundreads of thousand, or millions of foreign immigrants, into their land. Their most basic rights of self-detrmination were ignored, time after time, and not only by westerners or jews. That is the great sin of what happened in Palestine in 1922 and 47 and 67, and afterwards.
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:28
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This was a particularly well written article.
quote:
Europe's Anti-Israel Excuse
By Abraham H. Foxman
National Director,
Anti-Defamation League
Throughout history a constant barometer for judging the level of hate and exclusion vs. the level of freedom and democracy in any society has been anti-Semitism -- how a country treats its Jewish citizens. Jews have been persecuted and delegitimized throughout history because of their perceived differences. Any society that can understand and accept Jews is typically more democratic, more open and accepting of "the other." This predictor has held true throughout the ages.
During the Holocaust, Jews and other minorities of Europe were dispatched to the camps and, ultimately, their deaths in an environment rife with anti-Semitism. Nearly 60 years later in a modern, democratic Europe that presumably had shed itself of the legacy of that era, Jews have again come under attack. During the past year and a half a troubling epidemic of anti-Jewish hatred, not isolated to any one country or community, has produced a climate of intimidation and fear in the Jewish communities of Europe. Never, as a Holocaust survivor, did I believe we would witness another eruption of anti-Semitism of such magnitude, in Europe of all places. But the resiliency of anti-Semitism is unparalleled. It rears its ugly head in far-flung places, like Malaysia and Japan, where there are no Jews.
The Anti-Defamation League has been taking the pulse of anti-Semitism in America for more than 40 years. Never did I expect that we would have to do the same in Europe, given the history and our expectation that European anti-Semitism, while not eradicated, would be so marginal and so rejected that it would not be a major concern.
What we found in the countries we surveyed -- Britain, France, Germany, Belgium and Denmark -- was shocking and disturbing. Classical anti-Semitism, coupled with a new form fueled by anti-Israel sentiment, has become a potent and dangerous mix in countries with enormous Muslim and Arab populations.
More than 1 million Jews live in these five nations, and their communities are under siege. Who would have believed that we would see the burning of synagogues and attacks on Jewish students, rabbis, Jewish institutions and Jewish owned-property? While European leaders have attempted to explain away these attacks as a fleeting response to events in the Middle East and not the harbinger of a more insidious and deeply ingrained hatred, the attitudes of average Europeans paint a far different picture. Among the 2,500 people polled in late May and early June as part of our survey, 45 percent admitted to their perception that Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own country, while 30 percent agreed with the statement that Jews have too much power in the business world. Perhaps most telling, 62 percent said they believe the outbreak of anti-Semitic violence in Europe is the result of anti-Israel sentiment, not anti-Jewish feeling. The contrariness of their own attitudes suggests that Europeans are loath to admit that hatred of Jews is making a comeback.
This view may make Europeans more comfortable in the face of what is happening in their countries, by suggesting that this time around, Jews are not the innocent victims but are themselves the victimizers in the Middle East. But the incredibly biased reaction against Israel seen in the poll -- despite the fact that Israel under former prime minister Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an independent state, and despite the fact that Palestinians have carried out a sustained campaign of terrorism against Israeli civilians -- speaks to a repressed hostility to Jews that may not be socially acceptable in post-Holocaust Europe. Still, even with such constraints, some 30 percent of Europeans are not averse to expressing their anti-Semitic beliefs openly and directly. Meanwhile, the Europeans have been tepid in their support for the U.S. war on terrorism and especially the Bush administration's efforts to broker an end to Israeli-Palestinian bloodshed. The Europeans seek to appease Saddam Hussein and other threats to the Western world while blaming Israel, not the Palestinian Authority, for the crisis. All while they minimize the extent of anti-Semitism in Europe and fail to immediately condemn horrific acts of harassment and vandalism. The message to Europe's burgeoning immigrant population is that there is a certain level of acceptance for intolerance. It is time for Europe to assume responsibility for a situation of its own making. The combination of significant, openly expressed anti-Jewish bias together with irrational anti-Israel opinions creates a climate of great concern for the Jews of Europe. It is not surprising that in such an atmosphere Muslim residents feel free to attack Jewish students and religious institutions not because they are Israelis but because they are Jews. And it is not surprising that some European officials have begun telling Jewish leaders to advise their numbers to avoid public displays of Jewishness, instead of promising to protect their Jewish communities.
European leaders and officials must see what is going on for what it is -- outright anti-Semitism -- and condemn the revival of this ancient hatred that had its greatest manifestations on the same continent.
They must acknowledge that the anti-Israel vilification across Western Europe is unacceptable. The recent comparisons of Israelis to Nazis, to Jews as the executors of "massacres" and even as the killers of Christ -- these do not fall into the category of legitimate criticism of a sovereign state. They create the very climate that questions the future of Jewish life in Europe.
Abraham H. Foxman, a Holocaust survivor, is national director of the Anti-Defamation League. This op-ed originally appeared in The Washington Post on June 27, 2002.
© 2002 Washington Post
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
this to me, and to many others, is the most basic point, the clear, undeniable, point. In 1922 (and then in 1947) the palestians were told by outsiders, what their future was. They were never given the right to chose democratically, if they wanted to allow hundreads of thousand, or millions of foreign immigrants, into their land. Their most basic rights of self-detrmination were ignored, time after time, and not only by westerners or jews. That is the great sin of what happened in Palestine in 1922 and 47 and 67, and afterwards. |
I think the record shows that the Arabs originally welcomed the Jews to "Syria" until Faisal was tossed out and the British kept the Palestinian portion of Syria for itself. From that point on, their main position is not that they did not want an separate Palestinian state inside Palestine, they wanted a Palestinian state covering the whole of Palestine with no Jewish state.
Since 1920, the Palestinians have had the prevention or destruction of Israel as a primary goal. Some may have given up this goal in recent years. Most Palestinians, though, have not.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:28
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First, feelings can't be incorrect. second, there is no such thing as ancient land claims. It is not writen anywhere, it is not part of any law, or international accord. You live on the land you live if the government of that land has given you the right to live there. Jewish political control over that rea ended in the first century AD. That was it. Arabs were the vast majority there in 1900, had the tiles and deeds granted to them by differing political leaderships in the area, the Ottoman Sultans being the last, for the previous 300 plus years. They, and not the reatives of folks who lived there millenia ago, had the right to determine the future of thier communities afterwards, specially after WW1. They werer betrayed that right.
Are the Jews safer in Jerusalm, or Chicago? Hell, they are safer in Tehran! The answer to the Jewish question (such a Nazi term...), and to horrors like the Holocaust, are not states based on national identity based states (that is part of the porblems that lead to the holocaust!). The solution lies with unequivicable respect for universal human rights! And the human rights, civic rihgts, democratic rights of the Palestinains were violated endless times.
I have never said I support Palestinains terrorism. I don;t, but those acts in no way invalidate the rights of human beings, and unless you are here to tell me a jewish life, and jewish rights, count more than Plaestinian rights, that means that the greatest crime of the ME till is the gross violation of the civl rights of the Palestinians. 1200-1400 Jews have died from Plaestinains terrorism in 50 years...at least 5 times as many Plas, but the deaths of under 10,000 people is still less suffereing than the denial of rights to 3 million (5 if you count the diaspora of refugees).
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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Oerdinn: Your posted article also seems to be a non-sequiteur, as not one single news article is mentioned in it. I suspect that you were trying to show a general anti-semitism in Europe, however, which is just one enormous propaganda stunt...  Just look at the polling in the article and the conclusions drawn:
quote:
Among the 2,500 people polled in late May and early June as part of our survey, 45 percent admitted to their perception that Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own country |
And this is anti-semitic how?
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While 30 percent agreed with the statement that Jews have too much power in the business world. |
Quite frankly, I would like to see the polling question. I don't know a single dane that would ever answer "yes" to this question as it stands.
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Perhaps most telling, 62 percent said they believe the outbreak of anti-Semitic violence in Europe is the result of anti-Israel sentiment, not anti-Jewish feeling. The contrariness of their own attitudes suggests that Europeans are loath to admit that hatred of Jews is making a comeback. |
Perhaps the most telling, this clearly shows what a piece of garbage the analysis of this polling is. How is this anti-semitic? We all know that the outbreak of recent violence against jews in Europe is almost exlusively by muslim groups (and the rest by the usual group of nutjobs that has been around forever). So if stating the obvious is anti-semitic, what was the point of the poll?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO1003
Under this statement the Palestinians could be denied any right to live in Israel now. More importantly, here you recognize that governments can and do change. This comes about by various means. |
They are denied that right, and legally, yes, by the recognized state of Israel. And that goevrnments change does nothing to counterargue the fact that rights were denied.
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Again, according to your own statement, the government in power bestows the rights. This was apparently not their right. From a Human rights point of view, this could have been handled better. How? That one is beyond me. The outcome desired by the world conflicted with the will of the people there, but it was in tune with a group that could have no other homeland. This I believe is a root cause of current problems. |
The government bestows titles of property. Jews made up a minority of the lgally recognized citizens of Palestine in 1922. What you are ignoring here is the notion of what gives a government legitimacy 9and thus the right to decide rights)
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So true!! If only it wasn't the real world. |
So your support of the "liberation" of Iraq was based on some weird fantasy you are telling me does not exist?
Nationalism (under which zionism, and the ideology of the PLO both fall under) is one of the most corrosive and damaging ideologies of the last 200 years, and man can certainly live without it. As long as people falsely deify this false ideology, then you sad statement will continue to make a better world difficult.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:28
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quote:
When the Palestinian peoplr quit using terrorism to try to obtain their goals, then the world as a whole will hear their plight. Only then can they hope to address the problems that they face. |
As I said at first, the 10,000 or less deaths (majority Palestinian) in the last 50 years is the minor crime (if the more direct tragedy) of this conflict, the greater crime being the vast denial of civil rights. This is a fifty year old problem, so judging it all by the last 3 years makes little sense to me. The fact that peace has stalled has more to do with ingrained political choices form both sides than the violent acts.
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While I can idealitically wish for these rights for the Palestinian and Israeli people, I am also pragmatic enough to understand why they are not there and why it will take some time before they will be. |
I am pragmatic as well (I understand Israel is there to stay, that the unrestricted right of return won;t happen, so forht and so on), but I do not believe that intelligent debate on this can be held without acknowledging some basic truths about the conflict, and about what both sides have gone through.
as for the aspect of legitimacy: we live in a world where legitmacy is suposed tobe granted by national self-determination. As I said, i care ntohing for ther "national part", but I do think that self-determination does work. 200 years would not make an illegal government leigtimate, a theory of athority must lie behind it. The modern thoery is self-determination, and as long as that 9s the best we have, that is what we must use. The League of nations viokated its very ideas with every single mandate, and the UN also failed to live up to its ideals, with what happened in the mandate being one of the bigger failings.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
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In the United States, it seems most of the anti-Israeli sentiment is coming either from the left or from the Nazi right. The former is somewhat intellectually based. Even so, I have heard some really racist, anti-Jewish remarks from American liberals. At times, you would ask yourself if the person you were talking with were a Nazi.
I still wonder why the left has thrown in with the Arabs on the issue of Israel. I think it goes back to the days of USSR and of its siding heavily with the Arabs against Israel. I am almost sure that hand the USSR backed Israel against the Arabs, the sentiment on the left would be different today.
So, if I am right in this, European "anti-Semitism" really is political, confined primarily in the left and is a legacy of the cold war.
Last edited by Ned on 23-05-2003 at 07:52
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