23-05-2003 06:18									#91
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The main socialist critique is that israel is a quasi-imperialistic entity (founded by white europeans imposing thier ways on the locals), denying the Palestinains their rights. This is a simplified vcritique, but the most common one. Oh, and the USSR sided with the Atabs because israel begun moving towards the west, and the Soviets then moved to counter what they saw as a western leaning power in an area they had interests n. Simple balance of power politics. Russians have no more love of Arabs or Muslims.

And I certainly think Oerdin is wrong on saying anti-semitism is the driving force, since anti-Arabism and anti-islamism is very strong as well. If you hate both groups, you don't care to take sides.

And you are forgetting internal israeli polititcs. the Likud governments did a lot of things to convince the left of its "evilness", such as the close relation between israel and Apartheid South Africa.

	23-05-2003 06:50									#92
	Remove this text

quote: Don't be so lazy. Follow the links and read the articles. Many of them directly quote articles. I strongly suspect that your plan is to simply keep demanding more and more always rejecting what is offered out of hand.

Waht do you mean, "more and more".

I asked for examples, and I have yet to recieve a single one. If you had posted even one anti-semitic actual mainstream european media article, and I would have demanded a second example to show a pattern, then you might have some validity to your claim. (and even that is dubious...) If you had posted two actual articles, then you would have proven your point. But as it is, you are using Siros old tactic... Post a dozen editorials and claim that they represent anything even remotely related to a fact.

So I repeat: Just one article. You claim you have read them, you should be able to dig them up. You claim there are linked in the links you provided - well find them!

	23-05-2003 06:53									#93
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Plato:

quote: When the Palestinian peoplr quit using terrorism to try to obtain their goals, then the world as a whole will hear their plight. Only then can they hope to address the problems that they face.

For 30 years the world didn't care squat about the palestinians... Then they finally revolted violently, and the world took notice. Do you think they'll buy the line that "only peace can liberate you"?

It's the world that has to prove this line to the palestinians, not the other way around...

	23-05-2003 11:44									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm not going to write a research paper just to satify you especially since you will no doubt find some excuse to deny the truth no matter what. I will however post more links in hopes that a third person might be interested in reading about the Anti-Isaeli bias in many of Europe's Leftist journals. For those who are not so hateful as to believe everything written by Jews is a lie I give you... http://www.yashanet.com/anti-semitism/ A nice collection or recent anti-semetic articles from around the world. Yes, some from Europe too. http://www.honestreporting.com/a/Archives.asp Honest reporting critiques newsreports from around the world pointing out errors, distortions, and outright lies. There are several examples from European papers concerning their treatment of Israel. http://www.theblackflag.org/2003/la...aszlo030304.php A nice article on European anti-semitism and Pro-Arab bias. http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/hasbara/h...tisemitism.html Sure these is a Jewish site but many of their points are no less valid.

Oerdin, everything you post is from a lobby group with strong biases including honestreporting which is only concerned with correcting anti-Israeli distortions in the media. As I got reamed for posting a UNSC resolution simply because it was stored on electronicintifada, in another thread on the ME I have to call bullshit on everyone of your links. C'mon, stop being so lazy, it must be possible to find an article on European bias coming from a respected news source.

	23-05-2003 11:48									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The Palestinian leadership isn't concerned with peace at all. Even if Arafat (the biggest terrorist) leaves or dies, whoever takes his place will still be a terror-supporter. Even the new leader is just a puppet. And it seems like every time Sharon bites his lip and withdraws from an occupied area, a rash of suicide bombers attack. IMO... Terrorism is engrained in the Palestinian culture. It's either a case of clear support or apathetic support (like the Saudis with Al Qaeda). The terrorism "culture" doesn't care about peace, they just want the annihilation of Israel.

sava, i almost entirely agree with you

	23-05-2003 12:03									#96
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quote: When the Palestinian peoplr quit using terrorism to try to obtain their goals, then the world as a whole will hear their plight. Only then can they hope to address the problems that they face.

This is flawed logic and it carries with it many inherent biases. First, you say that Pals must quit terror, then the world will hear their plight. The fact is that the world has heard their plight quite resoundingly. You talk of the current human condition and many people in the world see a causality, where the oppression, restriction of rights and misery of the Palestinians results in terror. So, in a sense terrorism has proven successful for the Palestinian. Certainly without it their problems would have never come to the fore of international debate, it would not have stayed in that position for so many years and the Palestinians would have been left largely to the whims of the Israeli government without international intervention or influence.

Only then can they hope to address the problems? I fail to see how they would have any hope of addressing their problems if Israel wasn't continuously kept on the front page. For the Palestinian their is a danger in stopping terrorism without assurances or concessions, as once terror is gone their is no reason for the rest of the world to believe there is a problem worth addressing.

I'm not arguing support for terrorism, only trying to flesh out your idea of the current human condition. By making the first move in any peace plan the end of terror, without goodwill or reasonable assurances (simply saying its in their best interest isn't an assurance) you are waiting on a pipe dream.

	23-05-2003 12:36									#97
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu PLATO, with your screen name you really shouldn't do the old "all fish lives in water, therefore all that lives in water are fish"... What is wrong with the NYT? Panag? Preaching the truth? When did he start doing that? I stopped reading his posts a long time ago...

Stick to chemistry, Gnu. it's what you're good at.

	23-05-2003 16:53									#98
	Re: Palestinian Weapons Ship Caught(yet again) Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Eli A ship carrying weapons to the Pal territories was caught yesterday by the Israeli Naval Commandos. According to Arab networks, at least one Hizballah man was on board. It got publicized and uncensored only now, so there isnt much more to tell at the moment.

who cares, do I go whining when Israel gets a new shipment of automatic machineguns?

Pretty obvious that enemies try to buy weapons in order to fight back

	23-05-2003 20:42									#99
	Re: Re: Palestinian Weapons Ship Caught(yet again) Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Trajanus who cares, do I go whining when Israel gets a new shipment of automatic machineguns? Pretty obvious that enemies try to buy weapons in order to fight back

we can make our own

or are you angry that little state sponsered factory near liege does not make any sales , ....

	23-05-2003 20:53									#100
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 This is flawed logic and it carries with it many inherent biases. First, you say that Pals must quit terror, then the world will hear their plight. The fact is that the world has heard their plight quite resoundingly. You talk of the current human condition and many people in the world see a causality, where the oppression, restriction of rights and misery of the Palestinians results in terror. So, in a sense terrorism has proven successful for the Palestinian. Certainly without it their problems would have never come to the fore of international debate, it would not have stayed in that position for so many years and the Palestinians would have been left largely to the whims of the Israeli government without international intervention or influence. Only then can they hope to address the problems? I fail to see how they would have any hope of addressing their problems if Israel wasn't continuously kept on the front page. For the Palestinian their is a danger in stopping terrorism without assurances or concessions, as once terror is gone their is no reason for the rest of the world to believe there is a problem worth addressing. I'm not arguing support for terrorism, only trying to flesh out your idea of the current human condition. By making the first move in any peace plan the end of terror, without goodwill or reasonable assurances (simply saying its in their best interest isn't an assurance) you are waiting on a pipe dream.

gsmoove, there are ways of resistance to occupation that do not involve terrorism and that can get the attention of the world. I personally remember the resistance of the Buddhist monks to the Diem régime in South Vietnam. When those Buddhist monks set themselves on fire in public squares, TV sets across the world carried the tragic immolation. I am sure that when Gandhi was resisting British occupation of India, the whole world watched and admired his resistance. What I am suggesting is that the Palestinians can resist and gain the world's attention in ways that do not involve extreme violence against the Israelis.

Terrorism is not required for liberation.

	24-05-2003 10:59									#101
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Ned, Ghandi isn't particularly relevant... England wasn't trying to remove all indians from India and replace them with brits, were they? They wanted to rule over the indian people as overlords and nothing else. Obviously, if the indian people won't allow themselves to be ruled, England didn't gain anything from it.

But non-resistance in palestine is the worst thing the palestinians could do - What would stop Israel from swallowing what is left of palestine then?

	24-05-2003 11:00									#102
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Monk, do you have anything substantial to add?

	24-05-2003 20:39									#103
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Ned, Ghandi isn't particularly relevant... England wasn't trying to remove all indians from India and replace them with brits, were they? They wanted to rule over the indian people as overlords and nothing else. Obviously, if the indian people won't allow themselves to be ruled, England didn't gain anything from it. But non-resistance in palestine is the worst thing the palestinians could do - What would stop Israel from swallowing what is left of palestine then?

we can do it any time we want , yet we dont do it , ...

	24-05-2003 23:26									#104
	Re: Re: Palestinian Weapons Ship Caught(yet again) Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Trajanus who cares, do I go whining when Israel gets a new shipment of automatic machineguns? Pretty obvious that enemies try to buy weapons in order to fight back

Israel doesnt distribute their weapons among their populace with the sole intent of killing innocent bystandards. These weapons had the name of Israeli civilians on the receiving end... completely dispicable.

Equating Israeli actions with terrorism is complete bull ****... any rational person can clearly see the difference between Israeli and palestianian practices. Equating the two and then siding with palestinian terrorism is just sad