23-05-2003 22:44									#31
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I've been to two muslim countries (Egypt and Turkey) and nobody forced my sister and mother to wear veils in them! AFAIK Oerdin there are very few muslim countries where western women are forced to wear a veil while visiting - Saudi Arabia might be the only one.

The only reason why western women do wear veils (and sometimes wedding rings, even if they're not married) in these countries is stop themselves from being hassled by Arab men for sex, who basically look upon western women as being promiscuous.

	23-05-2003 22:48									#32
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You went to very moderate Muslim countries. Until recently Turkey made it illegal for women to where the headscarf and Eygpt has always been pro-western.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan, sudan, the northern part of nigeria, and perhaphes (though I'm not sure) Oman, and Yeman all require women to where the scarf. In Iran repeat offenders are publicly whipped if they refuse to where the scarf

	23-05-2003 22:48									#33
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One of my first political memories was the similar crisis back in 1988. My mother is a teacher and in the family, it has always been an issue much discussed upon, so my "banana" is deeply seated

David stars, Christian crosses etc. are allowed at school because, according to my mom, they are not 'obvious' signs of religion in the meaning that you cannot see them if you don't pay attention. By the same token, Muslim pendants are allowed at school.
However, headscarves are obvious to all, and make some girls avoid some courses, like Davout said. This should not happen in the strictly egalitarian French education system.
But, most of these girls DO want to wear the headscarf, and are rarely forced by their families to do so. For them, it is an indispensable piece of clothing ; they'd feel naked without it. Please also notice the people we are talking about are nearly all born in France and full-fledged French citizens. Some even descent of immigrant grandparents. So, it's not like they had a choice in their nationality.

I would personally favor the half-assed 'solution' :
- Deem the headscarf as a piece of clothing rather than religious belonging (no matter how hypocritical it is).
- Force headscarf-wearing girls not to wear it in courses that make headscarves dangerous (Gym, Chemics). The sanction of not complying would be to give a 0/20 in these courses because of inattendance.
- Force headscarf-wearing people not to wear it for ID pictures, the same way people are forced to remove their hats on ID pictures. The sanction for not complying would be to have the police make you a new ID with a proper pic and destroying the former.

Another solution could be thought out, but it would be much less half-assed : reintroduce uniforms at school. I was a strong opponent of this idea when I was a pupil myself, because I considered it killed freedom, but I have come to tolerate the idea much more over time. Notably because cloth-based 'freedom' is extremely shallow at school, and is mostly about showing in which gang you belong.

	23-05-2003 22:52									#34
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quote: I would personally favor the half-assed 'solution'

when you favor it, It's called compromise.

	23-05-2003 22:53									#35
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School uniforms would solve this problem completely and would eliminate rich students showing off their expensive designer clothes and interjecting class conflict into the education enviroment.

	23-05-2003 22:57									#36
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Oerdin

	23-05-2003 23:12									#37
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I'd favor school uniforms only if they look cool, and if private schools are forced to enforce them at the same time as public schools (about 17% of pupils/students go to private schools in France)

Edit : do you think these match the definition ?

	24-05-2003 01:54									#38
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I'm split, like GePap. On the one hand side I'd like to see muslims abolish headscarves, as it collides fundamentally with my views on gender equality. Yet it's stupid to "beat out" religious believes, it simply doesn't work - watch Turkey.
Furthermore I don't understand how the headscarf conflict with the secular state - you aren't obligued to wear it. Crosses put in classrooms by the schools is an example of such a collision, but why should the state interfer with how people dress? Maybe School uniforms would really be an answer, then it can make sense to ban the scarf even though I'd still advise the French not to do so.

	24-05-2003 02:11									#39
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quote: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan, sudan, the northern part of nigeria, and perhaphes (though I'm not sure) Oman, and Yeman all require women to where the scarf. In Iran repeat offenders are publicly whipped if they refuse to where the scarf

Remote parts of Pakistan perhaps, but no where NEAR a city.

	24-05-2003 02:16									#40
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School uniforms, with a school headscarfs for Islamic girls, would probably be a reasonable compromise. I agree that they should remove their headscarfs for identification photos and certain subjects.

Having said that, I don't know what it's like going to a school where religion is strictly banned. In British schools, religion is commonplace, particularly in primary schools, complete with hymns and prayers.

	24-05-2003 02:23									#41
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What's the problem? The Sikhs have the turban, why no headscarves?

Why not ban orthodox Jews, or Christian priests with their robes?

This is hypocrisy. No other word covers it.

	24-05-2003 02:27									#42
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Ahh, what Christian priest IN SCHOOL?

Oh, the Sikhs also have thier ceremonial daggers.

	24-05-2003 02:42									#43
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I don't see how anyone could support forcing girls to take off their headscarves since it is primarily to do with modesty. It would be like forcing girls to wear mini-skirts as school uniform... mmmm...

	24-05-2003 02:58									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy What's the problem? The Sikhs have the turban, why no headscarves?

I wonder if we have any Sikh in our schools... Anyway, the Sikh minority is that unsignificant in France that I take every Turban-wearing Sikh must have a case-to-case resolution. And yes, religious robes are banned in French schools, except maybe private / religious schools.


Sandman :
From my point of view, the very idea of going to schools where there are prayers is utterly shocking

	24-05-2003 02:59									#45
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"really don't see anything wrong with this law. The French are saying people are welcome to come to France but they must agree to act French and to assimilate into their culture. If you do not want to do this then you don't have to move to France."

What is supposed to be special about our western civilizationis that we allow for freedom of conscience and freedom of religion, that we don't impose conformity on those who are different. It is essential that they be allowed to practice religion so long as it is non-interfering, you cannot claim that the headscarve is I think. Moslem girls in my HS were allowed to wear their headscarve, the school was tolerant and it never caused any trouble.(well there were some jerks after 9/11, but that subsided...)

	24-05-2003 03:12									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi What is supposed to be special about our western civilizationis that we allow for freedom of conscience and freedom of religion, that we don't impose conformity on those who are different. It is essential that they be allowed to practice religion so long as it is non-interfering

The point of the traditional hardocre laicism of the French school (which begun in 1880, so the issue is also historical and emotional) is to make school a place of pure knowledge devoid of politics and religion. Nobody is forbidden to practice his religion or his political beliefs out of the school, but the inner is meant to be protected from that.
Actually, the State wanted to have its own propaganda / assimilation machine without having any competition inside it. But the idea of "no proselytism at school" has remained extremely strong.

Headscarves are a religious symbol, and are a visible one. The muslim girls who don't wear it can feel guilty at the sight of other muslim girls who wear it, and can be led to wear it themselves in the future. I call this religious pressure. For historical reason, it should be kept out of school. For practical reasons, we cannot be that extreme.

	24-05-2003 03:18									#47
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and if private schools are forced to enforce them at the same time as public schools

Why on earth would the rules be enforced in private schools?

	24-05-2003 03:19									#48
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I agree with Shi. Turbans, yamulkahs, crucifixes, headscarves... All should be allowed by students. The key point should be that the religions represented by those symbols cannot be pushed on the student population by teachers or groups. What individual students want to wear is their own business.

	24-05-2003 03:36									#49
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quote: From my point of view, the very idea of going to schools where there are prayers is utterly shocking

For all the weekly prayers, hymns and occasional bible stories and visits by ministers, it has had no effect on me. Most of the religion stops when you enter high school, apart from the ministers.

Britain and France have similar low levels of church attendance, so does it really make much difference?

	24-05-2003 03:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DanS and if private schools are forced to enforce them at the same time as public schools Why on earth would the rules be enforced in private schools?

Because it would otherwise create a huge appeal to religious / private schools, which will effectively push muslim parents to send their kids there. It will hurt the French integration machine, and will hurt the French society in the end by making it less homogenous.

	24-05-2003 03:51									#51
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quote: Originally posted by cinch The key point should be that the religions represented by those symbols cannot be pushed on the student population by teachers or groups.

When you have several headscarved girls gathering at recess, and this group has the reputation of being virtuous, while un-headscarved girls have the reputation of being sluts, it is pressure.
And that's why the problem isn't as simple as it sounds.

	24-05-2003 03:54									#52
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quote: What individual students want to wear is their own business.

I got the impression that this is the lesser part of the problem. The bigger is if teachers wear religious symbols because (it is thought that) teachers have a greater impact on student's opinions than fellow students. Be it or not, as soon as the teachers aren't forced to do the same or do the same for some other reason this diversity can make students think about what they believe, which is a good thing.

	24-05-2003 03:56									#53
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If student's get to wear religious symbols then teachers must as well. Either it is a religion free zone or everyone gets to wear what they please.

	24-05-2003 06:51									#54
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Spiff:

quote: When you have several headscarved girls gathering at recess, and this group has the reputation of being virtuous, while un-headscarved girls have the reputation of being sluts, it is pressure.

But won't these categorisations appear anyways, regardless of headscarves? It is one thing to be against the pressuring of religion on students, and entirely another to attempt to rid all high schools of social cliques and peer pressure.

	24-05-2003 07:08									#55
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very interesting matter indeed.


I also got a flash with the film with departieu (you know the one hollywood copied as usual and made it watered down) with the school and all the muslim kids and that principle who got the nervous breakdown with all those matters


fun movie, most of it, some was serious.


notable quote: mais qui est ce gaulois, pour qui'l se prend, pour clind estwood?

	24-05-2003 07:11									#56
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Interesting.

My church apparently had this internal debate as well, since many conservative Mennonite churches require women who attend to wear headscarves.

Their decision to not require headscarves follows the logic that it is more important to be chaste on the inside than the outside. Clearly, from Spiffor's problem, the kids are not getting this point.

From my point of view, I agree with Shi, that this is a fundamental part of religious freedom. So long as the headscarves do not interfere with education, they should be allowed, as would a yarmulke or a crucifix.

This is why PE might be a sticky point, would it be possible to ask the girls to remove their headscarves for sports?

As for the teachers, if the students are allowed, so should the teachers be allowed so long as it does not interfere with the student's education. I don't buy this argument that religious freedom is harmful to France.

	24-05-2003 07:13									#57
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quote: If student's get to wear religious symbols then teachers must as well. Either it is a religion free zone or everyone gets to wear what they please.

Well you can easily make an argument why the kids should be able to wear things but the teachers shouldn't. Teachers being employees of the school, and following a dress code. Students aren't employees (if they are, I want my back pay ).

Personally I think they should allow people to wear religious attire, students as well as teachers.

	24-05-2003 07:14									#58
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Spiffor:

But wearing a headscarf does not amount to proselytization! Seeing that someone is of a certain faith does not amount to proselytization, or that class will be disrupted. If people are tolerant, they should be fine and not get bothered by the headscarf. If not, well then that is something they will need correction on by the schools, but still the solution is not to punish the victim. If they are going to be around women in headscarves throughout their live, why not in school?

Furthermore, Islam is religion that calls for you to be Moslem all the time. You don't stop being the slave of Allah when you enter school. Furthermore, school is something they will be taxed for anyway, so they have a right to it. By forcing them to remove their headscarf, you are unnessecarily requiring them to go against their religion.

"The muslim girls who don't wear it can feel guilty at the sight of other muslim girls who wear it,"

Don't you think they will be seeing moslem girls with scarves in their lives? You won't solve any problems by banning them in school. Moreover, if they believe not weare the scarf is ok, they should be confident and firm in such beliefs. Moreover, the threat passive peer pressure is no excuse to violate someone's freedom of religion.

If France wishes to place itself outside the bounds of the Western norms of tolerance, i certainly hope the European Court of Human Right can bring it into line...

	24-05-2003 07:16									#59
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well the argument is not if religious freedom is harmful to France but wether the xercise of it through headscarfs interferes with the egality part of the threefold constitutional ideal.


It would be intersting to hear what goes on in other countries so brits, fins, spanish, belgians and all others i'd like to hear it.

	24-05-2003 07:18									#60
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You'll have to drag them here, paiktis. I suppose they don't care about headscarfs in France that much .