24-05-2003 07:20									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin School uniforms would solve this problem completely and would eliminate rich students showing off their expensive designer clothes and interjecting class conflict into the education enviroment.

yes old argument that as well. was implemented for exactly the reasons you said when Greece came out of WW2 and its civil war and some decades later was abolished (when the living standards generally improved for the general population). I believe it was very beneficial for the time era of its implementation. (although even my parents weren't born yet, its just what i gather from books of that time) the idea was that rich or poor you'd come to school as equal, treated as equals and learn as equals.

	24-05-2003 07:27									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You'll have to drag them here, paiktis. I suppose they don't care about headscarfs in France that much .

but dont you find it interesting that such a thing resurfaces with astinishing punctuality in france from time to time?


it'd be interesting to see why it doesnt in other countries. is it because they simply allow headscarfs or because there is not a complaint if they dont?

its interesting. just walking the street in my neighborhood i see (once in a couple of months or so occurance) a family where the woman wears a headscarf and i know that in greek schools with a majority of immigrant population (which is very diverse but it also includes muslim kids) there simply isnt a problem since noone wants to wear a headscarf.

why? is it that muslims in france feel the need to underline their cultural patrimony (algeria?) or is it that france is the onmly country to disallow headscarfs?
its rather intersting to find out if possible what goes on in other countries.

	24-05-2003 07:30									#63
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quote: but dont you find it interesting that such a thing resurfaces with astinishing punctuality in france from time to time?

Oh, that I do! I think it has to do with France trying to preserve it's unique culture, and dealing with immigrants who are not integrated into that culture. France has been fighting a battle for some time now in trying to be culturally French.

	24-05-2003 07:35									#64
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hmmm i dont think so. polls show that french are the less xenophobic europeans there are. french culture is simply rich. in germany for example the integration levels can be deemed to be much much lower. you'd be amazed to see how much french culture has accomodated its immigrants and in clear justapostixction with many other european countries.


i think the central point here is the word egality - no distinctions in french schools. which in principle is admirable but when it comes to these matters it gets interesting and ceraintly multidimensional

	24-05-2003 07:37									#65
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Hmmm.. well then I don't know.. It was my bullshit guess of the evening.

	24-05-2003 07:45									#66
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quote: religious freedom is harmful to France but wether the exercise of it through headscarfs interferes with the egality part of the threefold constitutional ideal.

That's an interesting argument, for school uniforms. Instituting school uniforms will level the school populations even more.

Should we also promote makeup to level skin colour in order to further expunge differences among the student body?

As for remaining 'culturally French' what does this term mean? Aren't they supposed to be devout Catholics?

	24-05-2003 08:21									#67
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 but dont you find it interesting that such a thing resurfaces with astinishing punctuality in france from time to time? it'd be interesting to see why it doesnt in other countries.

Schools are a very sensitive topic in France, because it was a huge issue back in the 1880's and the 1900's, when the Republic intended (successfully) to replace catholicism as the main societal value (sorry Obiwan ).
However, the defeat of the church wasn't complete enough, and there were many compromises made even at that conflictual time : private / religious schools were authorized and had specific priviledges (everytime a government tries to change the status quo, there are literally millions of protestors, in one way or another), while Public schools entered a phase of vigilant laicism.
After WW2, Public schools grew more tolerant towards displays of religion, and stopped their antireligious agenda. Still, as of today, you can still find a few teachers who believe in strict laicism at school, i.e the expulsion of all religion and praising of religion from it.
The laicism tradition of the French schooling system is a very deep tradition, which draws back from the State/Church conflict of the 1880's and the 1900's. It is as such a very French phenomenon, and it won't abate anytime soon.

From the 70's on, the mentalities really evolved : pupils were allowed to have religious display without fearing to be ridiculed by their teachers (except if they had some of the remaining *******s who ridicule pupils because of their religion), if this display was discreet enough.
The Islamic headscarf has brought the issue again, and it is a pain every time. Some say it should be completely excluded. Some say it should be allowed. Some say Banana. But it sure is an important issue to us, as it touches one of our values we have been taught at youngest age : laicism at school.

	24-05-2003 08:26									#68
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quote: Some say Banana.

	24-05-2003 08:33									#69
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quote: when the Republic intended (successfully) to replace catholicism as the main societal value (sorry Obiwan).

Well, that proves my point. What is necessarily 'French culture' changes and does not remain fixed over time.

If the French can convert from Catholicism to secularism, can they not convert to an Islamic republic?

Just look at those birthrates.

	24-05-2003 08:35									#70
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Well, there was a political regime that forced the shift to secularism. As long as the radical muslims aren't in charge of the regime (ain't gonna happen, since they are badly integrated in the society), there is very little chance the the Republic accepts not to be the fundamental French value anymore.

	24-05-2003 08:42									#71
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quote: there is very little chance the the Republic accepts not to be the fundamental French value anymore.

The fact that they are not integrating hurts your thesis. The less they integrate, the less they will adopt the 'values of the republic' and the more they will cling to Islam. Over time, within our lifetimes, we will probably see the Muslims become the majority if the current trends remain the same.

	24-05-2003 08:49									#72
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Well, if they manage to elect an islamic government who uses as much muscle as the 3rd Republic, it could indeed happen. But I don't hold my breath on it. The youth from Arabic descent doesn't seem to be really interested in religious matters, makign them quite valueless, and more prone to enter the rotten gangsta culture
However, one should indeed notice there have been progresses of Islamic teachings even among the Muslim youth recently, so that might give credit to your thesis.

	24-05-2003 08:56									#73
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In short, if you had stayed Catholic, you probably wouldn't be having this problem.

	24-05-2003 09:06									#74
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Had we stayed catholic, we would have indeed be bigoted enough to reject those muslim heathens

More seriously, I live now in Germany, a country where religion is significantly present, and I feel really glad to come from France everytime I see an ad for God.
I think the importance of religion in the German society (while being very mild in comparison to many other countries) is one of the factors explaining the dramatic lack of integration from the Turkish community. In France, the lack of integration is far from being that extreme.

	24-05-2003 09:07									#75
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Interesing. So Germans are religious?
They have "God ads"??!

	24-05-2003 09:11									#76
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I can't bear these ads "Jesus Christus ist unser Friede" (Jesus Christ is our Peace) in Stuttgart's subway anymore

In the subway, I often see ads calling to worship God and to adhere at christianty (of course, in the Cult that sponsors the ad), but this "Jesus Christus ist unser Friede" is the most consistent.

I even feel better when I see tobacco ads (something you wouldn't see in France either)

	24-05-2003 09:19									#77
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quote: In France, the lack of integration is far from being that extreme.

Spiffor:

How so? I've never seen either so I can't make the comparison.

	24-05-2003 09:22									#78
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* Bereta_Eder starts singing "Ensemble"

	24-05-2003 09:30									#79
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Well, here in Germany, it is a common thing to see ads for a Turkish band or Turkish actors (even Turkish movies) wholly in Turkish and which have no appeal for the German-speaking population.
Here in Germany, most Turks don't have the German nationality despite having always lived here, and being born here.
In Germany, the Turks have a consistent community to which the Turks belong from their childhood to their old age, with few interactions with the German society as a whole.

Such a division is a risk that might happen in France. The Arabs/Muslims aren't organized as a consistent community yet, but the significant lack of integration (mostly due to a racistic rejection from many Frenchmen, and a 'special treatment' by the police ) can create so. Besides, most Arabs are concentrated in specifi neighbourhoods with little social mixity, which can only help to create such a consistent community.
But OTOH, you won't see any Arab youth having any trouble speaking French, they all learned the programs of the public education (almost all private schools use the same programs as the public ones anyways), and there still remains some extent of religious / ethnical mixity in their neighborhoods (there lacks an income-based one dearly). This explains why a good chunk of the youth follows a 'rootless' way of life and go gangsta. Or Racaille ('rabble') as they call themselves here.

	24-05-2003 12:00									#80
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" But it sure is an important issue to us, as it touches one of our values we have been taught at youngest age : laicism at school."

I am sorry Spiffor, but it seems here you are using laicism as a fancy word to describe supression of free religious thought. Most western cultures have ugly traditions hostile to freedom, but we are supposed to eventually move past them.

	24-05-2003 12:04									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Remote parts of Pakistan perhaps, but no where NEAR a city.

I'd rather say pretty everywhere beside maybe in some parts of the metropolis Islamabad.. And it's surely official Pakistani law to have women wear the headscarf as they're one of only few nations (beside Sudan and Oman I think, which has the Sharia not only as the inexplicit "basis" of their law but being law directly, so...

	24-05-2003 12:52									#82
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Only in the extremely underpopulated Northwest Frontier Provinces. Most of Pakistan is secular....

	24-05-2003 13:00									#83
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Anyways, this sounds pretty unjust. As the French school system doesn't prohibit other religious symbols, there's no legitimate reason for them to do this. If the frogs want a dress code, they should at least be consistent. And pointing to crazy fundies in Saudi Arabia and saying that they act comparably in this respect, as some have done in this thread, is certainly no justification for this policy.

	24-05-2003 18:04									#84
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quote: I am sorry Spiffor, but it seems here you are using laicism as a fancy word to describe supression of free religious thought.

Say, free religious expression, and you have understood what laicism at school means here. The difference between a headscarf and a pendant is that a headscarf is obvious enough to be considered a religious expression. And it is the problem.

You may scream about Free Speech as much as you want, but school in France is not a place of free speech at first. It is a place of learning. However, for some decades now, the education has evolved in the right direction, where pupils are more able to express themselves and to build their personality through school. So far, religion wasn't part of it notably because school is about mundane topics (I don't think anybody here would think we have won at Austerlitz because God was on our side ). But the Islamic headscarf is changing this status quo, and it is the problem.

I personally have no problem with limiting freedom of speech at school, since the very nature of school is to "know better" (the basic principle behind limitations of freedom of speech). I am more concerned with the practicality of it, and the integration of Muslim girls. It is impossible to aleniate them if we want to integrate them.

	24-05-2003 18:33									#85
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When laws like this are passed freedom fighters should arise and rinse the people's streets free of corruption with the blood of the politicians.

	24-05-2003 18:34									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo If the frogs want a dress code, they should at least be consistent.

The frogs have suffered enough of religious wars to be cautious about those problems. The laicité solution, possibly not perfect, brought peace for the last 100 years.

Another example of potential problems : if girls because of their religion are authorized not to attend certain classes, the school will be obliged to record their religion. This is against the constitution. In this country, religion is a private matter which cannot give you special rights.

We place our consistency in not allowing the head of state to make prayers of his own religion at the beginning of official meetings of the government.

	24-05-2003 23:50									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Only in the extremely underpopulated Northwest Frontier Provinces. Most of Pakistan is secular....

Still the Sharia is the fundament of their constitution, Or how is it explainable that the followers of the Ahmadiyya-faith are persecuted since the Pakistani parliament declared them apostates of the Islamic faith? How secular!
But I was wrong, "only" in the NW regions the Sharia is direct law, but that means a very Taliban-like regime. In the rest of the country, the situation is bad enough and the fundamentalism rising, so even if there are some nominal freedoms, you won't see people execute them beside in the metropolis and there sometimes only with danger.

	24-05-2003 23:58									#88
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quote: I'd rather say pretty everywhere beside maybe in some parts of the metropolis Islamabad.. And it's surely official Pakistani law to have women wear the headscarf as they're one of only few nations (beside Sudan and Oman I think, which has the Sharia not only as the inexplicit "basis" of their law but being law directly, so...

Um... no, don't think so. I've been to Pakistan twice.. and in Karachi (the biggest city) and Lahore (the second largest) women didn't have to, and didn't wear head coverings.

So, try again. When you try to speak as an authority on something, please know what the Hell you are talking about rather than making **** up .

	25-05-2003 00:04									#89
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"Say, free religious expression, and you have understood what laicism at school means here. The difference between a headscarf and a pendant is that a headscarf is obvious enough to be considered a religious expression."

The headscarf doesn't do anything then let someone know they are a moslem, there is a big difference between wearing a headscarf and standing up and yelling during class about your religion.

"You may scream about Free Speech as much as you want, but school in France is not a place of free speech at first. It is a place of learning. "

Uh huh, so should we ban headscarves in the workplace? After all, they are not places of free speech, they are places of working! Or how about restaurants? They are not places of free speech, they are places of eating!

Of course learning comes first at school. And the teacher has a right to stop anything that interferes with learning. Wearing a headscarf does not interefere with learning.

	25-05-2003 00:25									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Well, here in Germany, it is a common thing to see ads for a Turkish band or Turkish actors (even Turkish movies) wholly in Turkish and which have no appeal for the German-speaking population. Here in Germany, most Turks don't have the German nationality despite having always lived here, and being born here. In Germany, the Turks have a consistent community to which the Turks belong from their childhood to their old age, with few interactions with the German society as a whole.

From my experience (Austria and neighbouring Bavaria), it's a much more mixed picture. There's still a good deal of "mixing" even in immigrant areas. Second generation Turks usually speak german and turkish, many no longer know much turkish.

Citizenship is a special issue with the ius soli systems - Turks would have to give up turkish citizenship, while their status is pretty well-protected without it under the EU association treaty with Turkey.

Sometimes I wonder whether we (Austrians) are overassimilitaing immigrants. I know some naturalised immigrants who are a bit xenophobic (but that may be a general trend).