27-05-2003 09:19									#31
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Before the Iron is connected, I'll have 6 warriors completed, 2 Regs and 4 Vets. I would like to have more, but that would require more funds and I really don't think that we would be able to get them for a while.

As it is, we won't be upgradeing them for a while, If we want to stay under CDG's Radar.

MoI E_T

	27-05-2003 09:45									#32
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Why does building more Warriors require more funds?

We currently have 5 cities, with another couple on the way. That's upwards of 5*4=20 free unit support. We should always be pushing that upper limit (incidentally, this is an argument for building cities faster, in case anyone wants us to slow down our expansion).

If, as nye says, war is a turn-to-turn possibility, then building Swordsmen should be preferred, I agree to that. I was under the impression we would be left alone to build for quite a few turns, in which case upgrading Warriors is a better way of creating our army.


Dominae

	27-05-2003 10:07									#33
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With CDG, anything is possible. I firmly believe a slow but steady buildup is wise. Then a sprint to an advantage, and then strike.

	27-05-2003 10:16									#34
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither With CDG, anything is possible. I firmly believe a slow but steady buildup is wise. Then a sprint to an advantage, and then strike.

I also was under the impression that we would be left alone till Republic, then would be able to do a mass upgrade. Are we really in that bad of a position where CDG could harm us?? I just don't think it's a great idea to connect the iron til we can get some more warriors out.

	27-05-2003 10:24									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Why does building more Warriors require more funds? We currently have 5 cities, with another couple on the way. That's upwards of 5*4=20 free unit support. We should always be pushing that upper limit (incidentally, this is an argument for building cities faster, in case anyone wants us to slow down our expansion). If, as nye says, war is a turn-to-turn possibility, then building Swordsmen should be preferred, I agree to that. I was under the impression we would be left alone to build for quite a few turns, in which case upgrading Warriors is a better way of creating our army. Dominae

Dom, I think nye is stating that it takes more funds, not for support of the Warriors, but for the upgrade of them to Swordmen/Medieval Infantry.

Plus we need some Swordmen units now, with more coming later. I want to be ready in case CDG does something really stupid. So Swordmen now gives us that security to deal with that situation. I back nye and others fully on this.

	27-05-2003 10:27									#36
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BRC.

I don't know. 4 or 5 immortals vs whatever we have at hand at the time... dicey. A lot would hang on the RNG.

We have no assurance of being left alone except through strength. An immortal is worth many warriors in the strength calculation. We would not be wise to let ourselves slip.

	27-05-2003 10:29									#37
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But we want them to attack us. I understand not now, but maybe our "lack of strength" in their Military Advisor Screen will encourage them.... They come, we upgrade, they're done for.

I don't think that they would be able to respond to a "weak" Apolyton in the next 10 turns though....

	27-05-2003 10:32									#38
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Uhhm, BRC. At this point it would take us 20 or so turns to upgrade the 11 planned and existing warriors.

This is not a time for war. We most certainly do not want CDG to attack in the next 50 turns. Minimum.

	27-05-2003 10:36									#39
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Uhhm, BRC. At this point it would take us 20 or so turns to upgrade the 11 planned and existing warriors. This is not a time for war. We most certainly do not want CDG to attack in the next 50 turns. Minimum.

Ok, so we're gonna upgrade some warriors... just in case. I understand why you want to do this and I agree to a point, but I also want to have the biggest force possible when war comes. Have numbers been ran on how many turns at 100% tax (after Republic) would probably be necessary to upgrade however many warriors we plan on having??

	27-05-2003 10:45									#40
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I think the point BRC is trying to make is this:

It is more efficient to upgrade Warriors in order to get our Swordsmen. If we plan to attack CDG, we'll want to use this tactic.

But at the same time, we need to have an adequate defense in case CDG attacks us. Which is why we want to connect the Iron and build some Swordsmen from scratch just in case.

It's definitely not an easy question. A balancing act.

This is why knowing where you stand with your neighbors is so important: we're second-guessing CDG, and it's costing us. It's not our fault at all, either: assuming CDG knows what they're doing, they're playing some pretty good mind games with us right now.


Dominae


P.S: Nice to see you around, BRC!

	27-05-2003 15:43									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae It's not our fault at all, either: assuming CDG knows what they're doing, they're playing some pretty good mind games with us right now.

I think that assumption is a fairly significant leap of faith, no matter how you meant it.

	27-05-2003 16:05									#42
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Nevertheless, assuming is all we can do, unless someone stumbles upon a CDG chat and leaves with the information without them noticing...

Having been out for 2-3 days now I can't make a call on how things are with CDG. Based on what was happening those few turns ago, I would say we have some time to ourselves. BUT, one thing we have been ultra-careful to do so far is not let ourselves be caught in a vulnerable position. This is, IMO a very good thing to continue with.

We could have a more efficiently prepared force if we went with warriors. Fair enough. But there is an element of risk there, to a clear and present danger of CDG Immortals. If we get some Swords soon, then we stop ourselves from being so vulnerable, at the expense of a little efficiency. OK then. Our efficiency is what has made us what we are today, and has given us our plan of greatness for the future. We will thrive and outstrip the others thanks to the wealth of talent in the team. So what need we care for a small amount of wasted efficiency, if it gives us insurance? It is inefficient to buy insurance, yet people do so anyway, to head off those unforseen or rarely prepared for circumstances.

Let's make caution our watchword. Exposing ourselves at this critical point in our development is not a good idea, and I hope everyone seriously looks at the admittedly unlikely yet very possible consequences before committing ourselves to efficiency over insurance.

	27-05-2003 17:37									#43
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One more thing about the warrior/swordsmen debate: if we build only warriors and too few swordsmen, our Military position could change to "weak compared to CDG". CDG might react on this, if they see it. This could or could not be an advantage.

	27-05-2003 17:50									#44
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hi ,

we should try to make as many as poosible swordmens teamed up with a nm , ..... several of those teams are able to stop them , ....

i just played a game where i survived in a city with barracks size 7 an attack from 8 immortals with onle three spear , .....

a horse in launched an attack against a second stack and that they kept around and he died after killing 2 immortals and two archers , .....

a second city survived with a barracks and one catapult with two swordsman and one spear from an attack of 5 immortals , ....

all units where vets

talking about a large amount of luck

have a nice day

	27-05-2003 18:40									#45
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Alright, the savegame arrived at a wee inconvenient time of the day for us... I am going to wait a bit until playing the turn, though probably just 2-3 hours.

Here is the situation:

1) Morris moved further westwards, outside of our cultural borders. Two tiles from the nearest target of ours now.
2) The barb in the North disappeared.
3) F3 says there are 'Harappan tribes nr Tripoli.

Suggested moves:

1) N2 'Mao' to move S (2), searching for the barb camp
2) W3 'Alva' to move N-E (8-6), searching for the barb camp
3) elite W6 'Hagbart' stay fortified - covers both workers and the city.

If Morris moved inside our cultural borders on the next turn (I consider it almost impossible, as he cannot see unit/s we have in Tripoli and on the adjacent hills), we would be able to engage with Hagbart (or MerZenary).

4) Worker 'Dan' to move S-S-SE (2-2-3), to clear a jungle tile that is already roaded.
5) W9 '???' to move NW (7), to use the defense bonus of the hill; looking for the barb camp there.

	27-05-2003 19:13									#46
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quote: I think the point BRC is trying to make is this:

Thanks Dom. I was tired.

quote: One more thing about the warrior/swordsmen debate: if we build only warriors and too few swordsmen, our Military position could change to "weak compared to CDG". CDG might react on this, if they see it. This could or could not be an advantage.

This is something that seriously needs to be thought about. Do we gain more by being "Strong" or "Weak" (Swordsmen vs. Warrior upgrades)?? We want them to attack somebody.

	27-05-2003 19:18									#47
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quote: Originally posted by BRC Do we gain more by being "Strong" or "Weak" (Swordsmen vs. Warrior upgrades)?? We want them to attack somebody.

Neither.

Average is the way to go - that way, we will be neither an obvious, easy-to-grab target, nor a threat to be dealt with.

	27-05-2003 19:23									#48
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I agree with Vondrack- STRONG might make them turtle, and we want them to expend their energies. WEAK might make them come for us, and no matter how fake that is, we still take more damage in a war with them than we would if CDG expended their energies on GCA. Maybe we should try to be STRONG in comparison, and then offer to assist them with GCA, saying "Look, we know you've got to go one way or the other, and we figure if we help you go south, you won't have reason to come north."

Lies, but believable ones.

	27-05-2003 19:28									#49
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quote: Originally posted by BRC Thanks Dom. I was tired.

Heh, you were coherent; I was just giving you backup.


Dominae

	27-05-2003 19:28									#50
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Neither. Average is the way to go - that way, we will be neither an obvious, easy-to-grab target, nor a threat to be dealt with.

We won't really be an easy-to-grab target if we play it right. The plan would be to upgrade when they decide that we are "weak" enough. Uh-oh. Now we're strong compared to them, and they've committed to fighting us. The counterattack will be quick and severe.

P.S. I also realize that this would be very hard to get the timing right on this.... I'm just giving my opinion on how to goad them into ending their game.

	27-05-2003 19:30									#51
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OK. Just read F-P's post. We would like to send them after GCA?? That does make more sense. Sorry for the hassle.

	27-05-2003 19:47									#52
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BRC, there is one thing that may be making myself sound like I wasn't getting your idea about weakness and strength: the idea of letting Persians attack us, crushing their offensive first, and launching the decisive counterattack only then is Dom's baby and is currently not part of the official (though not yet officially adopted via a poll) long-term plan. That plan (AltSp) assumes we attack first, on our terms (see the last few posts of the AltSp thread - the current plan is included there in detail. It is a lot easier to plan this way, since we cannot directly control what CDG does - thus relying upon what they do (read: when they attack) is considered too risky.

	27-05-2003 19:53									#53
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There is the persistent problem of Gold for upgrades. Right now we're planning on getting to The Republic ASAP, which means we're diverting all our Commerce to Science. If we do build a bunch of Vet. Warriors, we have to resign ourselves to not upgrading for quite some time. In the event that CDG attacks before The Republic, we would be left with a bunch of relatively useless units. How I would love to be in bed with GCA right now!


Dominae

	27-05-2003 20:00									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae There is the persistent problem of Gold for upgrades. Right now we're planning on getting to The Republic ASAP, which means we're diverting all our Commerce to Science. If we do build a bunch of Vet. Warriors, we have to resign ourselves to not upgrading for quite some time. In the event that CDG attacks before The Republic, we would be left with a bunch of relatively useless units. How I would love to be in bed with GCA right now!

Dom, this is why we do not plan to delay connecting our iron too much and build few vet swords from scratch.

	27-05-2003 20:10									#55
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Dom, this is why we do not plan to delay connecting our iron too much and build few vet swords from scratch.

Yes, I know, I was just explaining the situation for the populace at large.

In order to increase participation, we need to make our decision-making process (including arguments) as complete and coherent as possible. I imagine it is very frustrating to read the boards and not understand a thing because 50% of things were decided "in chat". This is not a criticism.


Dominae

	27-05-2003 20:11									#56
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It is extremely rare that I am in chat, and I follow along just fine. ::shrug:: Everything was addressed in the thread.

Actually - on that note- uh, has the chat room changed or am I showing up at the wrong times? Last four times I popped in, it was empty. Am I going to the wrong place?

	27-05-2003 20:29									#57
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack BRC, there is one thing that may be making myself sound like I wasn't getting your idea about weakness and strength: the idea of letting Persians attack us, crushing their offensive first, and launching the decisive counterattack only then is Dom's baby and is currently not part of the official (though not yet officially adopted via a poll) long-term plan. That plan (AltSp) assumes we attack first, on our terms (see the last few posts of the AltSp thread - the current plan is included there in detail. It is a lot easier to plan this way, since we cannot directly control what CDG does - thus relying upon what they do (read: when they attack) is considered too risky.

I understand now. Sorry for the confusion. I'll go reread AltSp.

	27-05-2003 20:41									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon It is extremely rare that I am in chat, and I follow along just fine. Everything was addressed in the thread.

* Dominae slowly removes his foot from his mouth...

	27-05-2003 20:42									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Actually - on that note- uh, has the chat room changed or am I showing up at the wrong times? Last four times I popped in, it was empty. Am I going to the wrong place?

Yes, most probably.

The Poly IRC chat server is back. No need to use DALnet or Undernet anymore.

Connect to Apolyton.net, room #ApolytonISDG, password polyrising.

	27-05-2003 21:09									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae * Dominae slowly removes his foot from his mouth...

Mmm, tasty foot. I wasn't criticizing; I'm sure being in chat helps a lot... merely pointing out that you can follow along just fine by being only on the boards.

* Fried-Psitalon wonders what foot tastes like, anyhow. He's not that flexible, even if people have accused him of having his head up his........ oh, nevermind.