29-05-2003 02:43									#1
	Not the veil again! Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Here you will find an article about the veil thing again. When do these people get their ideas? As you will see (if you click on the link) in most muslim countries id pics are taken without the veil or women are not allowed to drive at all!

So long...

	29-05-2003 02:46									#2
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If all those Moslem nations can require women to be unveiled for ID photos I don't see why we can't do the same.

	29-05-2003 02:50									#3
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Just think if she was in Saudi Arabia she would be deemed genetically unfit to drive due to her lack of a Y chromosome.


Last I heard driving was a privilage and not a right. Part of holding that privilage is having an officer be able to tell if you have a driver's licience or not. Refusing to allow yourself to be photographed prevents that from happening, ergo, she should get a bus pass or be driven around by her male relatives like they do in Saudi Arabia.

	29-05-2003 02:57									#4
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quote: Assistant Attorney General Jason Vail

How ironic is that?

	29-05-2003 03:12									#5
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Where in the Qu'ran does it say "cover thy self with a huge big heavy and uncomfortable looking black outfit"? From what I understand from Muslim friends and educational materials, it says to "dress modestly".

I understand the (oh god my grasp of vocabulary is going to fail me now) Hajib? Is that the covering that covers the hair but leaves the face uncovered? But the burka (please please say that's what she's wearing in the photo) just looks extreme.

	29-05-2003 03:18									#6
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They won't let me wear a hat in my photo, let alone a garment that covers my entire face. I have to say, anyone who wants to turn this into an issue of religious freedom is simply out of their mind.

	29-05-2003 03:30									#7
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we want veal

	29-05-2003 03:33									#8
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separtation of church and state... freedom of religion... conflicting issues, eh?

	29-05-2003 03:36									#9
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It could be bin Ladin under there.

	29-05-2003 03:39									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Japher separtation of church and state... freedom of religion... conflicting issues, eh?

Not in this case if its true that Muslim countries that allow women to drive require the face to be visable for the license photo.

	29-05-2003 03:57									#11
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true, they probably don't allow their women to drive... Man, wouldn't that be nice.

	29-05-2003 03:59									#12
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she obviously lives in the 15th century. what does she need a car for?

j.k. of course.

wouldn't it be great if we all had a bar code on our arm and a microchip up our brown-eye? then we could cover our heads in whatever we want and no-one would whine about it

	29-05-2003 04:05									#13
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Not in this case if its true that Muslim countries that allow women to drive require the face to be visable for the license photo.

Well, it seems that if what Starchild is saying is true (and from what little I know it is true), that what is required in those countries is based on societal norms rather than religious ones.

	29-05-2003 04:08									#14
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The Pioneer: By the way, who's that boy in your avatar?

	29-05-2003 04:27									#15
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its black and white. if you want a drivers license you need a photo ID. if you dont want a photo ID then you dont get a drivers license. end of story

	29-05-2003 04:38									#16
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I agree with Space05us. I fail to see why the use of a burkha on an ID should be tolerated in any way.

	29-05-2003 06:09									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I agree with Space05us. I fail to see why the use of a burkha on an ID should be tolerated in any way.

Yay, we have a Frenchie liberal on our side.

We aren't allowed to go out of our way to persecute religions, but we are not obligated to go out of our way to accommodate them.

	29-05-2003 06:29									#18
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What Islamic (or any other countries) require in their secular laws is irrelevant to the case. Foreign legal authority doesn't exist in the US, unless contracts or treaties incorporate that foreign law by their terms. Even if that authority existed, it would still have to meet US Constitutional tests.

The whole case (which should be dismissed for failing to state a claim) on one factual issue and one legal issue. Factual issue: Is wearing a full veil at all times clearly prescribed by a recognized religion? Legal issue: Is there a fundamental public interest to the state's requirement? The legal issue is clear - the driver must be identifiable, to prove she is in fact a licensed driver, in order to drive on public roads. The public interest demonstrates that the intent is not discriminatory, even if the effect is incidentally discriminatory.

	29-05-2003 06:31									#19
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damn this woman just had to be difficult... take the veil off for 3 ****ing seconds!

(by the way, would she be allowed to drive with a veil over her face?)

	29-05-2003 06:37									#20
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Of course there is another issue which is begging to be brought up. Let's say this woman gives in and gets he picture taken. What is to stop her from getting pulled over for speeding and refuses to remove her medieval head gear? The cop will need to varify that she is the person in the picture so he will need to see her face, yet, I am sure someone will claim that is against her religion.

	29-05-2003 06:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat What Islamic (or any other countries) require in their secular laws is irrelevant to the case. Foreign legal authority doesn't exist in the US, unless contracts or treaties incorporate that foreign law by their terms. Even if that authority existed, it would still have to meet US Constitutional tests. The whole case (which should be dismissed for failing to state a claim) on one factual issue and one legal issue. Factual issue: Is wearing a full veil at all times clearly prescribed by a recognized religion? Legal issue: Is there a fundamental public interest to the state's requirement? The legal issue is clear - the driver must be identifiable, to prove she is in fact a licensed driver, in order to drive on public roads. The public interest demonstrates that the intent is not discriminatory, even if the effect is incidentally discriminatory.

What I wanted to say, but couldn't find the words for.

	29-05-2003 06:47									#22
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Again... is it legal to drive with a veil over your face?

	29-05-2003 07:23									#23
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Albert: Yes, the veil doesn't impair vision.

The REAL issue is this:

"Freeman, a convert to Islam previously known as Sandra Kellar... "

Anybody with experience knows that there is a no more insufferable zealot than the recently converted...

I don't think it's been said enough but this woman is an idiot who doesn't care a whit what Moslem women do and don't do, but cares for making a fuss.

	29-05-2003 07:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Factual issue: Is wearing a full veil at all times clearly prescribed by a recognized religion?

That's what the statements about the practices in Islamic countries more relevent to this case than they normally would have been IMO.

	29-05-2003 07:29									#25
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I think its a barbaric practise but you must learn to undestand other cultures and let them chose their own way!!!!

	29-05-2003 07:29									#26
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just out of curiousity, has it been publicized what sort of a muslim she is? sunni? shiite? black muslim?

	29-05-2003 07:32									#27
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white liberal soccer mom muslim

	29-05-2003 07:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by South killer I think its a barbaric practise but you must learn to undestand other cultures and let them chose their own way!!!!

That is one of those nice ideas that gives everyone warm fuzzies but which, in practice, turns out to be extraordinarially stupid. I suppose we should have let the Germans choice there own way to deal with religious minorities? Opps, they did. The British were totally evil Christians who were pushing their values upon everyone else when the royal navy ended the tran-atlantic slave trade. Nope we can't have those damn WASPs telling people how to act. Coordinated action to end female sex slavery is imperialist so we'd better not try to deal with that issue. We don't want to offend anyone you know; we just want them to develop according to their own values.

Sorry South Killer but your moral relativist argument just doesn't hold water once you look at the fine details.

	29-05-2003 07:55									#29
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That's what the statements about the practices in Islamic countries more relevent to this case than they normally would have been IMO.

The problem there is that the practices are dictated by cultural norms and secular laws, as well as by religion. Only religious practice can be protected under the First Amendment*, so you have to confine yourself strictly to religious sources.

* Not getting into countervailing public interests (no pun intended) or balancing of rights, just talking about what can be protected.

	29-05-2003 07:58									#30
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There is nothing specific in the Koran, it is merely a social custom. All I can say is, to each his (or her) own with regards to that society.