29-05-2003 04:55									#1
	nVidia caught cheating on benchmarks Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This isn't exactly up-to-the-minute news (linked article was published on Monday), but I don't recall seeing a thread on it before.

http://www.megagames.com/news/html/...tcheating.shtml

quote: "We have now established that nVidia's Detonator FX drivers contain certain detection mechanisms that cause an artificially high score when using 3DMark03. We have just published a patch 330 for 3DMark03 that defeats the detection mechanisms in the drivers and provides correct results." this is how Futuremark introduce their latest patch for their popular 3DMark03 software. According to Futuremark when the patch was applied a drop of as much as 24.1 per cent was observed in certain nVidia products, while competition products performance-drop stayed within the margin of error of 3 per cent.

Cheating =
Getting caught =

	29-05-2003 05:00									#2
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VIVA RADEON!!!

(I've hated nVidia to death ever since they took over 3dfx and stopped supporting it, just when win XP came out. Now I have to play all my Glide games in a dual-booted win 98.)

	29-05-2003 05:05									#3
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I heard Nvidia has a lot of performance problems with its 5600 and 5800 (I think it was) it recently put out.. those cards performed rather poorly when put up against ATI.

http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphi...on_9600-28.html

http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphi...tournament_2003

And check out the other tests there..

They show the serious performance deficencies in Nvidia boards.

Now Nvidia is cheating? Naughty, naugthy, naughty!

	29-05-2003 05:08									#4
	Re: nVidia caught cheating on benchmarks Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Cheating = Getting caught =

or rather,

Cheating ==
Getting caught ==

I saw this a gamespot (I think) at the weekend but forgot to post it.

master zen, you still play Glide games? I don't know why NVidia bought 3DFX as they were on their arses anyway, they had no new technology and to get faster boards they had to keep just putting more chips on them, the price/performance ratios towards the end were shocking.

	29-05-2003 05:14									#5
	Re: Re: nVidia caught cheating on benchmarks Tired of ads?

quote: master zen, you still play Glide games? I don't know why NVidia bought 3DFX as they were on their arses anyway, they had no new technology and to get faster boards they had to keep just putting more chips on them, the price/performance ratios towards the end were shocking.

yeah, well my computer is a lousy P3 500 with a Voodoo3 3000 which back in the day was a heckuva card!

Some glide games I play are mostly flight sims: Falcon 4.0, European Air War, Jane's F-15, F/A-18. Most of those are better than the sims out today and Glide looks much better than using any other type of 3-D rendering.

	29-05-2003 05:19									#6
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You like that sort of 'shiny' look (best word i could think of, sorry), I kinda miss it myself, Hexen that sort of thing

	29-05-2003 05:25									#7
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Yeah

Falcon 4.0 to me shows the biggest difference between Glide and Direct3D. Simply stunning graphics for a game which came out 5 years ago

	29-05-2003 05:49									#8
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This is so stupid, ATI gets equivalent performance boosts by the same methods.

All graphics cards makers do it, all have done it, and all will still do it. It only makes sense to optimize your drivers so the benchmarks are higher for you.

I'm completely dumbfounded why the headlines say "Nvidia gets caught cheating", when ATi was "busted" as well (and even more dumbfounded that people are surprised??)

	29-05-2003 05:52									#9
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Well it is called capitalism. Live with it or move to the caves. I am not complaining about any company cheating. To boost profits will be good for the economy. If the cheating is in the terms of the law that is.

	29-05-2003 05:57									#10
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Not too sure how this will be good for NVidia's "economy", but sure, whatever Fez.

	29-05-2003 06:00									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Asher This is so stupid, ATI gets equivalent performance boosts by the same methods. All graphics cards makers do it, all have done it, and all will still do it. It only makes sense to optimize your drivers so the benchmarks are higher for you. I'm completely dumbfounded why the headlines say "Nvidia gets caught cheating", when ATi was "busted" as well (and even more dumbfounded that people are surprised??)

This doesn't sound like 'optimizing', maybe I'm wrong....

	29-05-2003 06:01									#12
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever This doesn't sound like 'optimizing', maybe I'm wrong....

It's optimizing to the extreme.

ATI does it too, you know. That's why they take 9-20% performance hits in the same tests where Nvidia does.

Game makers know that 3DMark and Quake III will be used.

Hell, Nvidia designed the NV35 HARDWARE based on Doom III, not just the drivers...

	29-05-2003 06:08									#13
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Ah, Doom III, now that game is going to cost me a LOT of money, Iv'e got fast processor but a GF2 and a SDR M/B, so I'm looking at 250 GBP to play the game! Or I may just get it for my XBox...

	29-05-2003 06:36									#14
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Not too sure how this will be good for NVidia's "economy", but sure, whatever Fez.

That is a classic Fezification, though, you have to admit.

	29-05-2003 06:50									#15
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You get your PM MtG?

	29-05-2003 08:01									#16
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Ah, Doom III, now that game is going to cost me a LOT of money, Iv'e got fast processor but a GF2 and a SDR M/B, so I'm looking at 250 GBP to play the game! Or I may just get it for my XBox...

I've actually been holding up pn buying a new kick-ass computer until Doom III comes out and can get the best one to play it smoothly. In the meantime I'm slogging through with my P3 500

	29-05-2003 08:14									#17
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Am I the only one here who still thinks the Voodoo 2 is the last word in graphics cards?

	29-05-2003 08:15									#18
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Voodoo 2 is only a 3D card, not a graphics card.

	29-05-2003 08:17									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I've actually been holding up pn buying a new kick-ass computer until Doom III comes out and can get the best one to play it smoothly. In the meantime I'm slogging through with my P3 500

You'd have trouble running Doom I on that rig, let alone DoomIII, seriously thou, up until now you don't need all those 'bells and whistles' if youre willing to compromise on screen res, shadows etc. unfortuneatly it looks like DoomIII is going to raise the bar...

	29-05-2003 08:17									#20
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Voodoo 3 still kicks major ass. Perhaps the best of its time ever?

	29-05-2003 08:22									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

I had a Banshee, both 3D and 2D graphics!! Before that you had to switch between the two, as Asher has alluded to

	29-05-2003 08:28									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It only makes sense to optimize your drivers so the benchmarks are higher for you.

It doesn't. It's the equivalence of saying it makes sense for athletes to take performance-boosting drugs.

	29-05-2003 08:31									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It doesn't. It's the equivalence of saying it makes sense for athletes to take performance-boosting drugs.

Hey, they sure as hell can! Provided there are no rules about it.

That's a very bad analogy, UR. Why don't you think about it for a second.

1) Graphics cards are products. Athletes are competitors.
2) Much of these optimizations result in real-world performance boosts (ie, Q3A based games).
3) Athletes are competing in organizations that do have rules, and do restrict it. There are no such rules in video cards.

Companies like their product to look their best. There's absolutely nothing wrong, illegal, or even immoral about optimizing/"cheating" in your drivers. It's your product, it's your drivers, you can do whatever the hell you want to them.

	29-05-2003 08:35									#24
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Graphics cards are products. That compete with each other.

	29-05-2003 08:38									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Graphics cards are products. That compete with each other.

What organization governs it, and restricts such optimizations? MadOnion?

I also find it interesting that MadOnion has a partnership with ATI and not Nvidia.

There's politics going on here, I think a lot of people are being used as pawns unknowingly.

I'm not saying athletes who compete can't use performance-enhancing drugs either, they just can't while they're competing under organizations which govern that. There is no such organization (and I hope there never is) for graphics cards.

	29-05-2003 08:46									#26
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever You'd have trouble running Doom I on that rig, let alone DoomIII, seriously thou, up until now you don't need all those 'bells and whistles' if youre willing to compromise on screen res, shadows etc. unfortuneatly it looks like DoomIII is going to raise the bar...

I can play FIFA 2002 on 800x600 flawlessly without a glitch with all graphic options on. Testimony to how truly great the Voodoo3 really is.

And no, I'm not planning on missing a pixel with Doom III I WANT THE WORKS!!!

	29-05-2003 08:56									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Hey, they sure as hell can! Provided there are no rules about it. That's a very bad analogy, UR. Why don't you think about it for a second. 1) Graphics cards are products. Athletes are competitors. 2) Much of these optimizations result in real-world performance boosts (ie, Q3A based games). 3) Athletes are competing in organizations that do have rules, and do restrict it. There are no such rules in video cards.

There are no written rules. One of the idea behind benchmarks is they are fair, the playing field is even. Opimizations are a no-no because they break this basic idea.

That's why athletic competitions are such a good example. Sure, there are rules in those, but the rules are to enforce these fundamental ideas. These rules didn't exist before, they were put in place as more and more people started to cheat. This could very well be the case with things like benchmarks as well.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Companies like their product to look their best. There's absolutely nothing wrong, illegal, or even immoral about optimizing/"cheating" in your drivers. It's your product, it's your drivers, you can do whatever the hell you want to them.

It's not illegal per se, but it's immoral. It's like driving a race car that's been secretly modified to exceed the stated restrictions. You look good as long as you aren't exposed.

	29-05-2003 08:58									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger There are no written rules. One of the idea behind benchmarks is they are fair, the playing field is even. Opimizations are a no-no because they break this basic idea.

This is nonsense -- without optimizations, Q3A-based games would be far slower for everyone.

Drivers are optimized for their most common uses. Common games are optimized for, common benchmarks are optimized for.

It's not immoral, everyone should know benchmarks are just snapshots of performance for specific applications. It's just part of what benchmarks are.

quote: It's not illegal per se, but it's immoral. It's like driving a race car that's been secretly modified to exceed the stated restrictions.

Again, what are the "stated restrictions" in the graphics card industry?

As far as I know, the only thing that comes close is WHQL...

	29-05-2003 09:22									#29
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It's not that it's illegal or not, just that it is misleading the customer about the card's capabilities. It may be technically fair and square but it's just wrong. I would not have much faith or loyalty to a company which does that.

	29-05-2003 09:25									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen It's not that it's illegal or not, just that it is misleading the customer about the card's capabilities. It may be technically fair and square but it's just wrong. I would not have much faith or loyalty to a company which does that.

So you're not going to buy from ATI or Nvidia?

Good luck with that.