30-05-2003 23:24									#91
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Hi all...

Is it possible??? Could I possibly be having a good game? Okay, I'm now playing as the Chinese, still on regent. Actually I had to double-check and make sure I hadn't changed the difficulty because I was doing so well.

3250BC -Contact with Iroquios. These f'ing scouts show up way to quick. I got pottery, bronze working and 2 gold for masonry.

2800BC-Iroquios must have gotten settler from huts to SE. Bop Iroquios settler.


I can't believe how early the dang scout showed up. I hadn't even built a second city.

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	30-05-2003 23:27									#92
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1525BC-Contact with Rome. Got alphabet for 40 gold.

950BC-Take out another Iroquios settler.

850BC-Autoraze Niagra Falls. Yay, I took out a city before I lost one.

I sent a big stack up at the Iroquios. I got Niagra Falls and then on to Salamanca without any opposition. I almost took it but it wasn't meant to be. But I had another focus and haven't been back since.

This has been by far my best game so far. I'm not sure if Rome and the Iroquios went to war or something but neither of them have been sending a lot of units my way and neither of them have many cities.


670BC-Rome is captured

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	30-05-2003 23:28									#93
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But alas, it wasn't meant to be.

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	30-05-2003 23:31									#94
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But in the end I did manage to retake Rome. I had another stack headed for some other Roman cities that I instead sent for Rome itself. 2 legionaries in Rome took out 5 archers. But I have it. I'm sending in more units to hopefully keep Rome from flipping again so we'll see.

No GLs yet but I'm hoping. I'm currently building the GL in my capitol and it'd be great if I could rush it.

On a sad note my computer chair just broke. I guess it was just as surprised as me that I was actually doing good.

BigD

	30-05-2003 23:51									#95
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Dominae,

Better placed by 2 tiles ain't much. Both of us are stuck with FP cities that require aqueducts to grow, which is vaguely annoying. Researching Construction now.

BigD,

Keep pluggin' away, man! It's starting to look good.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 31-05-2003 at 00:31

	31-05-2003 00:07									#96
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I played a lot yesterday, as it was raining therefore I wasn't working... Here is how it went.

When I left, I was struggling with the Iroquois and the Romans, as everyone else. Just a reminder, I'm playing Germany at Regent difficulty.

Shortly after, I met an Indian galley near my eastern coast. Unfortunately, they had met the Iroquois and Romans first so they were already furious with me. I got their territory map in exchange of my world map. Not a pretty useful trade, but they had no money and I didn't want to buy anything with gold, as I needed it.

So to war I go... again! On that turn, the Indians traded contacts to everyone else in the world.

Total war it was!

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	31-05-2003 00:16									#97
	Entering the Middle Ages Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

My science was set to 0% because of the GL and most of my cash is going to upgrades. With the rest of the world contacted, the tech pace was a lot faster. I grabbed feudalism fairly soon that way. Almost all my cash went into swordmen->Med. Inf. upgrades. With a 4 attacker, I was ready to take on the Iroquois.

Remember, I already had taken Rome. So Rome deprived of iron was not a great threat to my empire. My swordmen were taking MW in ambush at the base of the mountains, but I wasn't ready to charge on Salamanca.

So I brought a couple of newly upgraded pikemen to cover me and attacked Salamanca, which I managed to take. Then deprived of horses, the Iroquois were a much easier prey. I finally managed to take all of their juicy lands.

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	31-05-2003 00:18									#98
	760AD Got spare money?

In 760AD, I managed to control all my continent. The Iroquois were no more and the Romans were sent off in exile to a northern island on which they have two cities. It is pretty nice to see all this island covered in blue... German blue!

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	31-05-2003 00:23									#99
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Near 1100 AD, the attacks started to come home. Remember, we're playing a total war game...? The war then came. The convoy in the screenshot below was full of troops which the AI, in it's great wisdom, dropped one ship at a time, ALL ON THE SAME TILE!!. So for a couple of turns, my island was heavily fortified on a part of my island and the rest was basically not covered...

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	31-05-2003 00:37									#100
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But with these landings of swordmen, Med. Inf, horsemen and warriors, I managed to keep my troops alert. One of them even generated a GL, my 4th.

The other were respectively passed on army, FP in Rome, Adam Smith Trading Company, Palace move to Salamanca.

I just entered the Industrial age and got Steam Power from my scientific trait. I would have been happy if... I'll delay this until more people are at this point.

I think I'll be able to hold on, but I really don't see how I might win. The other nations are now dropping cavalry on my shores, which I counterattack with some knights and defend with pikemen. Casualties are heavy but I hold on. If the game continies like this, I'll probably suffer a spaceship or histographic loss. However, I have already reached the stage of "Moral Victory"

Here is a view of my continent right now (1385AD). Circled are my palace and FP. Not optimal placement, but decent though. The yellow spot is THE landing tile of the first wave of attacks.

--Kon--

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	31-05-2003 01:36									#101
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Since the beginning of my game, I have nt seen any AI at war against each other. They might have been at war, but nobody ever managed to capture a city. This is one important thing I miss about always being at war with the AI: we can't use diplomacy in order to create world wars to slow down the tech pace of everybody. It's a technique I use frequently and I really miss it here...

	31-05-2003 02:06									#102
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Crap, I lost my last AAR post.

Anyway, I'm gone for the weekend and will not get to play this game...I'm at 1200 or so AD now, and things are pretty rough tech-wise, though I did just get Newton's and Smith's (on the same turn!). More reports on Sunday night. Have fun everyone, and keep it up (it's a tough scenario, yes, but possible...I think).


Dominae

	31-05-2003 02:15									#103
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Newton's & Smith's, eh? That's HUGE. It's about as much as you could ask for... but the really big ones are yet to come... ToE & Hoover! Not to mention the UN...

-Arrian

	31-05-2003 07:46									#104
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Tried it on Deity with the Ottomans... even got a Settler from the second hut... but no dice.

Went for IW right off, complete waste of 40g. Met up with Rome and the Iroquois on the same turn, after they built cities right up next to mine. That allowed for some pretty good trading, Masonry + my gpt + gold got me Pottery, CB, WC, Alphabet, and 40 of my gold back.

I was pretty suprised how well Spears behind Walls worked out. I was at about 90% in battles won, using Archers for counterattacks (mostly on MW's) and Spears to hold onto cities. There just were far far too many AI units.

Ended up getting 2 Leaders, one rushed the Pyramids, the other would have made an Army if I had any units to fill it with at the time, or rushed the GL if I could've held out for the 20 more turns till Literature.

Maybe Carthage with Mathmatics could do it. Without Iron or Horses there isn't a lot that can be done.

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	31-05-2003 08:32									#105
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BigDork did you have any barracks in any of the ciies? I made them in all my front line cities. They do two things that are useful: 1 produce vets 2- heal surviviors.
The way to handle legions is to attack them in the open and take Rome. They will not be able to build any more Legions. I guess they do not have any more iron. They kept sending archers and spears, but no legions.

Edit: wow this was meant for your Persia post, but I see a new game since then.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 31-05-2003 at 08:45

	31-05-2003 08:48									#106
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 BigDork did you have any barracks in any of the ciies? I made them in all my front line cities. They do two things that are useful: 1 produce vets 2- heal surviviors. The way to handle legions is to attack them in the open and take Rome. They will not be able to build any more Legions. I guess they do not have any more iron. They kept sending archers and spears, but no legions.

I usually start a new city by building a barracks. Especially when I'm playing military civs because it's nice and cheap and of course so useful for this game.

I took out Rome and they were still sending legionaries my way. I think they may have had another source of iron. That or they had a lot in another city. Oh well.

My China game is starting to slow down. Both the Iroquios and Rome are sending a lot of units my way. I'm making another grab for Rome. I'm gonna hold it this time too.

I also built a colony on the iron in the mountains to the north. This is soooooo useful. Now I have swordsmen to fight those annoying legionaries and it's helping a lot.

BigD

	31-05-2003 08:51									#107
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Dom, I hope you are correct, but this will definitely not be a cake walk at any level.
The two big problems I see are tech and massive units coming sooner or later.

Aeson, I know the feeling of no horse or Iron. I see Kon (I think it was) went with a colony. I opted to grab Rome. The trick is to stay in the game until you can get those swords.
Well I stopped my RPG for the day and so I can get back to this game and see how it goes.

	31-05-2003 09:55									#108
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Insanity. Utter insanity. England contacted me not TOO long after I'd settled the entire continent, and have puttered about in their galleys ever since.

Then a massive barbarian uprising occurred, throwing my empire into disarray. But it ain't all bad...

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	31-05-2003 09:57									#109
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I sure do wish I'd had a leader. My empire is crippled by corruption and I think that's pretty much going to cost me the game. I'm probably gonna stop here, especially now that I notice there's NO SALTPETER ANYWHERE!

Still, the GL turned out to be a regular ticking time-bomb, and when contact with the rest of the world finally happened, it paid off handsomely (in my most humble of opinions):

EDIT: I suppose I should note that at the time I was still in the Ancient Age, lacking Horseback Riding, Philosophy, and The Republic.

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	31-05-2003 12:03									#110
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I got to say it is starting to wear me down. The combat is going pretty well for now, but even I am getting sick of seeing troops on the move endlessly.
I had a 5th and a 6th leader, but had to use them on plain libs as nothing else could be done.
Nasty thing is that the 5th one came on the turn after I got Lit. Americans build the Great Lib on the same turn I researched it. I have libs in almost all cities. I have no idea how much of the land mass I control as I have not gotten over the mountains yet.
I have captured 3 or 4 settlers so I disbanded a few of my workers t save maint. I expect I can clear the island, but if I get no horses or saltpetter I do no see much hope.
England keeps asking for peace, but not the Romans or the Iroq? England is not losing that much, a few new towns and a few units they drop off. Rome and Iroq have massive deaths and loss of cities.
I just am not looking forward to knights or Calv coming to town and me with no RR, nothing but ancient units.

	31-05-2003 12:24									#111
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Gave it another go with Carthage. I really don't think I've got the chutzpah to win this one, but I can do something. Let's have ourselves a little AU Lecture, shall we?

First things first. Take a look at the left part of this little collage. I managed to get myself a settler from a goodie hut up in the hills. Past experience tells me where the Iron in these mountains is, but in a regular game there could be iron anywhere. That said, the settler should probably found a city in the foothills in the hopes of providing an iron source. In this particular case, I built one square to the left. The iron wound up being north and west a bit, so I was easily able to snake out a colony and protect it with Numidian Mercs. This gave me swords against the Roman Legion, which is a big deal! If you start in an area that looks resource-poor (like a lot of coastal plains), it often pays off to stick a city in the heart of the mountains. Just remember to chop all those forests and irrigate so that the city has food - the mountains and hills will provide more than enough shields, so ALWAYS irrigate in this sort of case. If you get lucky and have iron not only close, but in the city radius, cross your fingers and keep playing - the Iron Works might just be in your future.

Now, on to the second half of this mini-lesson, a critical piece of strategy for Carthage and a general concept for any civ: the art of encircling.

Hannibal's famous march through Italy wasn't just for the scenery. Hannibal knew that attacking an enemy from all sides - especially the ones that are assumed to be "safe" - made victory more predictable. Of course we all know how Hannibal's campaign worked out, but Civ3 gives us the chance to do better.

Note the top picture. At first I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I had nothing to build (no granary/temple available yet, and I got a barracks up in both cities easily) at first, and lots of forest to chop. I figured, well, if an archer rush is good, an archer rush with D3 archers is even better! And lo, my Numidian Mercs streamed across the mountains towards the Iroquois. Niagra Falls fell to a couple of Mercs, the survivor of which fortified to heal. The newer mercs approached Salamanca from many angles, closing in at various positions as they arrived. This accomplished three tasks. First, it gave the trailing units a chance to catch up. In the early Ancient Age, roads are a luxury, and the strongest units are usually the slowest. Second, it denied Salamanca resources. You try hitting somebody fortified on your cows or your furs or (God forbid) your HILL with D3. Even the Mounted Warrior (Hiawatha only squeaked out one before I choked his production) can't always crack a Numidian, especially fortified on a hill or across a river. Bad news. Third, it let me use my various staggered units to trick a settler into a trap, letting me bop it for two free workers and deny Hiawatha the chance to sneak away. With Salamanca locked and all settlers accounted for, we can safely say the Iroquois are contained. From here, the rest is up to you. I chose to wipe 'em out, but a more pragmatic player (or someone playing a militaristic civ with archers staggered slightly further from Salamanca to hit things exiting the town) would keep them around, having their Elites hit the trickle of attackers and, with luck, generate a leader or two (or three, or four, with some people's luck)!

The second picture is a little easier to understand. Rome on a hill on iron is just bad news. You're not going to crack the Legions easily without losing many, many Swordsmen. But why let Caesar have the numerical advantage? As Carthage, the Numidian Merc is a great "passive-aggressive" fighter. March right in there, rip up Caesar's improvements, and squat outside the gates of Rome. Sure, he's got iron, but I'd like to see him build many Legionaries without any shields. Eventually he'll get impatient and sneak a Legion or three out - THAT'S when you hit them with your swordsmen. After a while, you won't see any more Legions running around... and that's when you pile up swordsmen right outside of Rome (safely protected by a probably-Elite Numidian!) and deliver the coup-de-grace.

So remember kids: If you don't have horses, you can still get the EFFECT of mobility. The key is to encircle and establish a strong front right in the enemy's face, until that slow trickle of foot units turns into an unstoppable flood.

Obviously, this goes well with Zargon's "war-road." Use roads, preferably Industrious ones, to move defensive units to the front, set up shop, then use the same roads to get your attackers in. The best part is that the road is difficult to attack once you've closed the noose, giving you an unquestionable tactical advantage - you can get units in fast, but your opponent has to contend with zero infrastructure and your defensive and offensive forces just to get a few squares out of town. And Carthage has a mean, mean trait/UU combo for just this sort of early shin-kicking.

Now that's what I call a war!

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	31-05-2003 14:27									#112
	Inflate your Upload Space

Using Carthage (Deity) on the second try turned out not too hard to survive. Had 7 Leaders by 500BC (was at about 5 Elite victories per turn) but had only managed to advance a total of 3 tiles outward from my first ring of cities. I grabbed the GL among other wonders, and that has me up to Chivalry. In the process of fighting my way so I can hook up an Iron Colony. It's tough going.

I have an Army of NM's and 20 Cats, and they can keep most the Legions at bay but can't really kill many of them. I sent the Army to protect some workers driving for the Iron, but that was a big mistake, started losing ground badly without it on the front.

Rome has way too many units. I can kill all the Iroquois units, but the Legions just ping pong back and forth between the cats and their towns. Even a 1 HP Legion kills my attackers (Archers/NM's/Horsemen) about half the time. I have a feelings it's a connect the Iron or die game.

England might start shipping over Knights soon, which I wouldn't be able to deal with. So far they've only landed about 20 units, mostly Swords and Spears which die quickly.

	01-06-2003 00:43									#113
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Hello All.......Everyone seems to have some great stories to go w/ this AU course. I have been playing AU rules Regent PTW & the first 3 times (Ottomans, Aztecs, China) I was TOO passive in my approach & had My HEAD handed to me. I decided to take a More Aggresive Approach w/ the Zulus & The results were Shaka destroyed the Romans circa 2900 b.c & the Iroqouis

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	01-06-2003 02:11									#114
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I have not gotten back to the game yet today, but it seems that you are correct Aeson. It is connect up iron or die. The other thing is you may need the GL as well.
I got the iron, but missed the GL and I am afraid this will spell doom. No tech from England on contact and only one from Rome and Iroq. I suspect that any future contact will not lead to any tech either, unless I have cash.
Researching all on your own and no tech from huts is going to be hard. Especially since you are at war all the time. I am not even sure how I will manage to switch to monarchy when I get it (learning now).
I never saw any barbs to this point 310AD. Of course with troops running all over the land, how would there be any camps.

	01-06-2003 07:04									#115
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Hey all,

I've played up to 1130AD. FYI: Monarch, Persia, 1.14 standard rules.

I nabbed Adam Smith's, but that's it. I just got my second leader, will probably make an army with him.

2 AIs have hit the industrial age - America & England, both somehow (inexplicably!) still republics! The rest are Monarchies. I haven't ventured off my island - I've been in massive builder mode. Universities/Banks all over the place. I'm researching my way toward the industrial age, but I figure I'm just slightly less than 1/2 an age behind. Bah! I will kill them all!

By the way, Alexman, YOU SUCK! No saltpeter, huh? So be it. I wasn't planning on using Cav anyway. I have cats, pikes, immortals & knights holding the island for now. I'm very worried about falling too far behind in tech, though. I've GOT to get England & the US into Monarchy.

This one's tough.

-Arrian

	01-06-2003 12:11									#116
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Very nasty...

Once I connected the Iron, things turned in my favor (at least on my continent). I've finished off the Romans and the Iroquois are down to one city off on a small island. Once the AI's hit Navigation it was pretty much all she wrote though. I did alright as long as I guessed correctly where the next landing would be, but then the Americans landed 3 Cavalry in the wrong spot at the wrong time, and I lost a city. It's full of Riflemen now, and just a matter of time till Cavalry start popping out.

Between the English, Egyptians, Indians, Babylonians, and Americans landing troops every couple turns, my army is wearing a bit thin. I tried to get back into the tech race by building a lot of Libraries once the Romans and Iroquois were being handled, but I'm still very far behind. I made it to Metallurgy and Education, everyone else is in the Industrial Era somewhere. All the AI's are in Democracy.

I probably should have left the Iroquois be, and sent everything I could to grab Saltpeter. Without it I won't be able to build the ships necessary to have a shot at making the crossing now.

Here's about as far as I got. The landing in the East I dealt with (the next wave is tough though), but I couldn't take back the American city and lost my Knight Army in the process. The beginning of the end...

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	01-06-2003 12:19									#117
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Thanks for the heart breaking news about the saltpeter. I had guess that would be the case. No horses, no saltpeter and total war, oh yeah that is nasty. The iron got from Rome ran out just as I got Pikes, so no updates until I can get a road to the one in the hills.
It has been a bugger, I finally captured the Iroq capitol and I am seiging the new one.
Funny thing happen when I got the iron hooked up. I had two spears and a sword in Niagara and the one spear won three battles in a row over MW. I upgraded to pike and he lost then fight without doing any damage. I guess I should have left well enough alone.
I am guessing that no other iron is on this mass as no swords or legions have come my way after the fall of Rome.
I got a seventh leader and I will hold him in the hopes of getting to invention before someone builds Leos.
I have not managed a single wonder after the Pyramids. This is due to the lack of knowledge of them until it is too late. It is aound 750AD, sorry I already forgot the exact date. I have a note that I got the last leader around 720 and stopped soon after that.
This gmes could go south very quickly once the other get knights or calvs.
Hey, am I slow or what. I just realize that horses must be some where for the Iroq to make MW. Curses for being so cautious about expanding.
I have marketplaces in most cities and libs/temples/aquaducts too and a few are making colosseums. Capitol has one. I am sweating naval bombardment coming. Engalnd has so many ships, I can not see much good news on that end. All in all I would not be surprised at a bad fall. Going down swinging though.

	01-06-2003 12:30									#118
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Aeson, that is about how I expected things to go. Put up a good fight until the lack of resources and tech is too much to overcome.
The massive troops would be hard to deal with even with all the key resources.
Not trading a lick is a big anchor. I am probably one of the players that trade the least, but I do need a few and maybe one or two extortions.
It is very very hard to stop troops that are from the next age, be they calv or MI or tanks. If they have calvs and you have knights or less, you got a problem, unless you have the numbers. In this game you will not have the numbers and they can grind you down.
I bet they are not making war with each once you declare. So you will not get any help with them hurting each other.
I figure that once I get the island to myself that will start the real trouble. The americans are getting a lot of the wonders, so they must be a power house by now.

	01-06-2003 12:33									#119
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Funny thing is I doubt that the difficulty level will change all that much in the out come. IOW, I wonder if one was to dropped down to even Chief, they would still have a hard time winning. You would maybe get the island conquered faster, but still be faced with the lack of key resources and monsterous AI civs will be coming for you with better tech.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 02-06-2003 at 07:30

	02-06-2003 04:55									#120
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I come to the conclusion, that is impossible to win at Emporer. Since I can't win (and I'm a genius ); that is the only logical conclusion.

So I'm droping down a level....make that 2 levels. This scenerio has ruined my weekend.