31-05-2003 16:58									#1
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I think we need more Nazi/Hitler-Threads

So here is mine - do you see the attempt to assasinate Hitler as treason or as an act of resistance? Of course for Nazis it was treason, for Stauffenberg, who placed the bomb in Hitler´s HQ in July 1944 it was not.

Or do you make a difference between what this action done by a German colonel was "technically" (one could say treason, because Hitler was the leader of the state/government and also the military leader) and what it means morally (a try to end the rule of terror done by Hitler´s regime) for you?

And when is it justified to resist, even with violence? Are assasinations of political leaders legitimate forms of resistance in totalitarian states?

	31-05-2003 17:01									#2
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the ethical value of any action should be a result of an ethical cost/benefit analysis of the result of such action. Assassinating Hitler would probably severly hamper the Nazi war machine, which is good, and therefore such an action would be ethical.

	31-05-2003 17:05									#3
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quote: So here is mine - do you see the attempt to assasinate Hitler as treason or as an act of resistance? Of course for Nazis it was treason, for Stauffenberg, who placed the bomb in Hitler´s HQ in July 1944 it was not.

I think you answered your own question there. Judgements depend on the point of view.

	31-05-2003 17:06									#4
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Sure, but I may be interested in hearing several POVs

	31-05-2003 17:14									#5
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quote: quote: Assassinating Hitler would probably severly hamper the Nazi war machine, which is good, and therefore such an action would be ethical.

some would say that getting rid of Htiler would actually be good for the nazi war machine, seeing as he was a lunatic and a terrible strategist.

I don't know if they would (or could) end the war even if Hitler was gone

	31-05-2003 17:21									#6
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True that, but since he was the driving force behind the war, this is less significant.

	31-05-2003 17:41									#7
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Resistance.
It is good to oppose your leaders when you disagree with them even in times of war. And except for very minor topics (like a specific tactics), assassination was the only way to have Hitler stopped.

Since I happen to disagree with Hitler, I say this guy was a hero

	31-05-2003 17:50									#8
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A hero is a person that commits an ethical act while risking himself, to a large degree.

	31-05-2003 18:50									#9
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Well it was treason because Hitler lived.

Had he died it would have been an act of resistance.

	31-05-2003 20:01									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Since I happen to disagree with Hitler, I say this guy was a hero

I´d say the same, but if one asks for a clear reasoning I´m not sure what to answer. Azazel´s post about a "ethical cost/benefit analysis" seems clear at first, but then you could justify probably some nasty things in that way too. Depends on what´s seen as "ethical".

	31-05-2003 20:07									#11
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quote: Treason or Resistance?

What's the difference?

	31-05-2003 20:50									#12
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Well, killing Hitler would have been fine, as long as a moral means was found. Planting a bomb in a meeting that Hitler happened to be attending was not moral, because of the risk of killing other people who may have done nothing wrong.

	31-05-2003 20:54									#13
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quote: Well, killing Hitler would have been fine, as long as a moral means was found.

Isn't "a moral means to kill someone" a bit of an oxymoron?

	31-05-2003 20:59									#14
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Hm not always - eg. in self defense

	31-05-2003 21:11									#15
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It was justified treason.

	31-05-2003 21:29									#16
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The German officers had an additionnal problem with this issue : they had sworn obedience and fidelity to the person of Hitler. This led them to execute orders they would never have accepted under their traditional military code of honor.

I see the attempt of assassination of Hitler as their only mean to free themselves from this evil oath.

I have no doubt that had they succeed, they would have made any effort to end the war with the West.

	31-05-2003 21:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Hm not always - eg. in self defense

Even in self defense, you should only kill if it's absolutely necessary. But I was going in the context he said it...as if you could 'find' a moral way to dispose of Hitler.

	31-05-2003 21:38									#18
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Orange: so, If the only way to kill Hitler was to throw a 2000lb bomb that would also damage the nearby nursery, that would kill a couple of hundred of babies, you wouldn't do it?

	31-05-2003 21:41									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Orange: so, If the only way to kill Hitler was to throw a 2000lb bomb that would also damage the nearby nursery, that would kill a couple of hundred of babies, you wouldn't do it?

I would say that our maps had not been updated

	31-05-2003 21:44									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel the ethical value of any action should be a result of an ethical cost/benefit analysis of the result of such action. Assassinating Hitler would probably severly hamper the Nazi war machine, which is good, and therefore such an action would be ethical.

No, without Hitler, the German war machine would have funtioned MUCH more effectively

	31-05-2003 21:46									#21
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, killing Hitler would have been fine, as long as a moral means was found. Planting a bomb in a meeting that Hitler happened to be attending was not moral, because of the risk of killing other people who may have done nothing wrong.

You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy Hitler... you criminal...



I got to say it first this time!

	31-05-2003 21:48									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Orange: so, If the only way to kill Hitler was to throw a 2000lb bomb that would also damage the nearby nursery, that would kill a couple of hundred of babies, you wouldn't do it?

Well, since the assasination (attempt) took place in a bunker of the "Wolfsschanze" there is a good chance that no babies were nearby

To David: do you see his staff in the HQ as "people who may have done nothing wrong."? I can understand that one has to be cautious with definitions of innocent/guilty, but such high-level personnel seems not to consist only of willingless puppets....

	31-05-2003 21:54									#23
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker No, without Hitler, the German war machine would have funtioned MUCH more effectively

In july 44, the German war machine was lacking of raw materials and ... oil, and that could not be overcome. Most of bad decisions made by Hitler cannot be reversed, and the air superiority was on the allied side and cannot be challenged.

	31-05-2003 21:59									#24
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quote: No, without Hitler, the German war machine would have funtioned MUCH more effectively

I already adressed this. Hitler was one of the leading factors of that war machine rolling in the first place.

BeBro: just using a Hyperbole to prove my point.

	31-05-2003 22:54									#25
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The ethics involved have little to do with whether or not the act is considered a crime. If German law at the time considered the assassination of the chancellor an act of treason, then what the man did was treason. Doesn't matter if he was right or wrong.

Question: what have assassins or attempted assassins in the United States been tried for?

	31-05-2003 23:28									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel the ethical value of any action should be a result of an ethical cost/benefit analysis of the result of such action. Assassinating Hitler would probably severly hamper the Nazi war machine, which is good, and therefore such an action would be ethical.

In his memoirs, Friedrich von Mellenthin made an interesting point that assassinating Hitler would have been a disaster for Germans and the allies both had it suceeded.

Generally, the ideas were that there were too many high-level leaders (Göring, Himmler, Bormann all had direct command of troops) who would have gone into hypermadman mode to become Hitler's successor. von Mellenthin's point was that the army and field forces would have still been in place, coordination between Luftwaffe field divisions, Waffen SS and the army couldn't have been any worse, and settling the succession issue would have led to the collapsing of two of the three political armed forces, with all equipment and logistical support going to the eventual winner. The regular army was last in the mix before, and would continue to be. If you figure the likely winners to be the SS, a concentration of resources to the SS at the expense of generally inept organizations like the Volkssturm and the felddivisionen of the Luftwaffe wouldn't have benefitted anyone.

While they were all subordinates sworn the follow Hitler, the big three *******s had to accept dilution of resources that each of them wanted.

As far as the "morality" of it, certainly it was treason. That's only a bad thing from the point of view of the government. The leaders (and followers) of the American revolution were all traitors, and had George III had his way, many would have danced from the gibbet, hence Franklin's saying that "If we don't all hang together, we shall all surely hang separately."

Kirnwaffen - assassination, attempted assassination, or conspiracy to assassinate the President is a distinct criminal offense under the United States Code, as is advocacy of assassinating the President or conspiracies to carry out such an assassination.

	01-06-2003 06:14									#27
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orange,

It is moral to help someone else. It is moral to act in the defense of another.

Azazel,

quote: so, If the only way to kill Hitler was to throw a 2000lb bomb that would also damage the nearby nursery, that would kill a couple of hundred of babies, you wouldn't do it?

Not me.

BeBro,

quote: To David: do you see his staff in the HQ as "people who may have done nothing wrong."? I can understand that one has to be cautious with definitions of innocent/guilty, but such high-level personnel seems not to consist only of willingless puppets....

The following people were at the table when the bomb went off:

Adolf Hitler
General Adolf Heusinger
General Günther Korten
Oberst Heinz Brandt
General Karl Bodenschatz
General Rudolf Schmundt
Oberstleutnant Heinrich Borgman
Admiral Jesco von Puttkamer
Stenographer Berger
Kapitän zur See Kurt Assmann
General Walther Scherff
General Walther Buhle
Admiral Hans Voss
SS-Gruppenführer Hermann Fegelein
Oberst Nicholaus von Below
SS-Hauptsturmführer Otto Günsche
Stenographer Dr Kurt Hagen
Oberstleutnant Leo von John
Major Herbert Büchs
Oberstleutnant Weizenegger
von Sonnleithner
General Walther Warlimont
General Alfred Jodl
Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Keitel

While some of these men were undoubtedly guilty of immoral acts, murder, etc., certainly some of them were innocent. I don't consider Keitel, for example, to be a war criminal.

	01-06-2003 06:19									#28
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yeah and whaat about the poor stenographers

	02-06-2003 12:53									#29
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The stenographers certainly did not deserve to die, but neither did any of the people in the concentration camps.

If you kill 2 stenographers but save 100 people from being gassed, it's still a moral act.

	02-06-2003 12:59									#30
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Generally, the ideas were that there were too many high-level leaders (Göring, Himmler, Bormann all had direct command of troops) who would have gone into hypermadman mode to become Hitler's successor.

That's assuming Walküre going completely wrong with Hitler dead. As it ran very smoothly until news of Hitler being alive broke, I consider that quite implausible.