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Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 02:21 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
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I'm not seeing how Bush's tax cut is targetted at the middle class

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


Who said anything about increasing taxes? I certainly didnt. There are better ways to stimulate the economy.


I am inclined to disagree with that, I think cutting taxes is the best way.

Victor, that is your opinion. But I believe it is.

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
I also claim targeting the middle class with a tax cut. But I also want the rich to receive some benefits too as they pay the most taxes.
Giving any tax cuts to the rich won't do much of anything to help this economy.

If anything, these stupid dividend cuts will only create a fake economic bubble. I think tax cuts are needed, but should be aimed at consumers. Consumers spend, economy does better, business profits, creates jobs. How many jobs will be created if business gets money without an increase in consumer spending? NONE!!! Business doesn't expand if it isn't profiting. It isn't profiting if consumers aren't spending. And consumers can't spend when 2.6 million have lost jobs and are losing retirements.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 02:23 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Sava: Do you just complain? Is that your job here? You are starting to piss me off..

I had it.. I am going to play Vietcong.. see you all later.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 02:26
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Everyone making under 30,000 should not pay any income taxes. Watch how fast the economy will pick up.

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor Galis
I'm not seeing how Bush's tax cut is targetted at the middle class
It's not, and I'm trying to get Fez to see the facts of this matter. But his political bias is preventing him from admitting that Bush has sold us a load of crap.
quote:
Sava: Do you just complain? Is that your job here? You are starting to piss me off..

What's pissing you off Fez? If you don't want to see complaints, don't come into a thread dedicated to the economy. WHICH IS SH!TTY RIGHT NOW.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Bush has sold nobody a load of crap, sava. You got your facts skewed. I suggest understanding the reality.

The economy is shitty? Since when? It is clearly showing signs of a good recovery.

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Bush has sold nobody a load of crap, sava. You got your facts skewed. I suggest understanding the reality.

The economy is shitty? Since when? It is clearly showing signs of a good recovery.

Here are some graphs for you Fez... digest... and I won't blame you for thinking Bush is an idiot. Sorry for the embarassment, but in your case, if you realize the truth, you might change. But I doubt it.

Attachment: fezeconomy.jpg
This has been downloaded 93 time(s).

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 03:07 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
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So far though the 'recovery' has not led to a fall in unemployment rates though.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Nice charts.. they mean nothing. The President doesn't direct the economy. The investors do. Nice try sava. It just doesn't work. You also forgot to mention the unemployment rate has not been over 6%, making this one of the mildest "recessions" ever.

Bush is no idiot, and a whole lot smarter than you.

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
The President doesn't direct the economy.
Care to enlighten us on your thoughts on economic policy? Government spending, interest rates, and deficits; greatly affect the economy. I'll be waiting for you to educate us to the contrary.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
Care to enlighten us on your thoughts on economic policy? Government spending, interest rates, and deficits; greatly affect the economy. I'll be waiting for you to educate us to the contrary.


True on those points. Let me reword my statement. The main driving factor behind the US economy is the private sector.

Also there is something called the economic cycle.. it is several years of expansion and several years of cooling off. Right now the US is in the final periods of the cooling off period. This is normal. It happens after a great many years of expansion. The 90s were like this.. long term economic expansion and then in 2000, the cooling off period began. Sometimes there can be a recession, but whatever recession there was this time it was extremely mild.

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
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quote:
The President doesn't direct the economy.


-But he can take credit when things go well right

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 03:16 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor Galis


-But he can take credit when things go well right


Yes.. that is what Clinton tries to do...

Sava is offline Sava
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 03:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Let me reword my statement. The main driving factor behind the US economy is the private sector.

Let me ask then... for the record... do you think Bush's tax cuts will improve the economy?

Ming is offline Ming
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 03:20 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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And a warning to Sava and Fez in this thread as well...

Stop your personal little battle... argue the issues, and don't insult each other.

From the number of complaints I'm getting about BOTH of you... I think people are just getting a tad sick of it.

Odin is offline Odin
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Sep 2000
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 03:20
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Fez, you know nothing, nothing about economics it seems. The government is supposed to moderate the bussiness cycle so we don't end up with another great depression. Read Keynes and sober up, Fezzie.

Ming is offline Ming
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And that warning goes to EVERYBODY as well..

ATTACK THE ISSUES... NOT THE POSTER!

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 03:23 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
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quote:
Yes.. that is what Clinton tries to do...


-So because Clinton did something, that makes it right then? In any case I was only pointing out the inconsistency in your argument. I do believe the President has some degree of control over the economy, not necessarily directly.

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
And a warning to Sava and Fez in this thread as well...

Stop your personal little battle... argue the issues, and don't insult each other.

From the number of complaints I'm getting about BOTH of you... I think people are just getting a tad sick of it.
Sorry for any personal things... my future posts will be devoid of such things. I hope we can continue to discuss this topic.

Sava is offline Sava
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 03:25
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quote:
Economic growth, though positive, has not been sufficient to generate jobs and prevent unemployment from rising. In fact, there are now more than two million fewer private sector jobs than at the start of the current recession. Overcapacity, corporate scandals, and uncertainty have and will continue to weigh down the economy.

The tax cut plan proposed by President Bush is not the answer to these problems. Regardless of how one views the specifics of the Bush plan, there is wide agreement that its purpose is a permanent change in the tax structure and not the creation of jobs and growth in the near-term. The permanent dividend tax cut, in particular, is not credible as a short-term stimulus. As tax reform, the dividend tax cut is misdirected in that it targets individuals rather than corporations, is overly complex, and could be, but is not, part of a revenue-neutral tax reform effort.

Passing these tax cuts will worsen the long-term budget outlook, adding to the nation’s projected chronic deficits. This fiscal deterioration will reduce the capacity of the government to finance Social Security and Medicare benefits as well as investments in schools, health, infrastructure, and basic research. Moreover, the proposed tax cuts will generate further
inequalities in after-tax income.

To be effective, a stimulus plan should rely on immediate but temporary spending and tax measures to expand demand, and it should also rely on immediate but temporary incentives for investment. Such a stimulus plan would spur growth and jobs in the short term without exacerbating the long-term budget outlook.

from the Economic Policy Institute... an organization comprised of people much smarter than Bush and his advisors.
quote:
George Akerlof*
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-BERKELEY
Kenneth J. Arrow*
STANFORD UNIVERSITY
Peter Diamond
MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
Lawrence R. Klein*
UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA
Daniel L. McFadden*
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-BERKELEY
Lawrence Mishel
ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE
Franco Modigliani*
MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
Paul A. Samuelson*
MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
Robert M. Solow*
MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
Joseph Stiglitz*
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY
Laura D’Andrea Tyson
LONDON BUSINESS SCHOOL
Janet Yellen
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIABERKELEY
Douglass C. North*
WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY
William F. Sharpe*
STANFORD UNIVERSITY

My opinions on Bush's policy come from people much smarter than me.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 03:26 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Hey, that wasn't too nice.. somebody deleted my post.. I didn't attack him in that post just answering the question.

quote:
Originally posted by Sava

Let me ask then... for the record... do you think Bush's tax cuts will improve the economy?


Yes in my opinion I do think so.

Sava, we must take some time to seperate from each other.. all we do is argue...

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 03:28 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava

from the Economic Policy Institute... an organization comprised of people much smarter than Bush and his advisors.

My opinions on Bush's policy come from people much smarter than me.


I have to disagree with those folks.

And besides didn't Bush attend Harvard and Yale as did many others in his adminstration? Put it anyways you like.. he is just as smart as those folks.

(Note: I am not attacking the poster, just discussing)

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
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  Old Post 02-06-2003 03:31 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
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Bush got Cs at Yale though

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
I have to disagree with those folks.

Can you explain why, please?

And can you please cut and paste in your respond so I can see where you disagree with what they said?

Thanks

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
POLICY MEMORANDUM

SUBJECT: EPI comparison of the Daschle and Bush economic stimulus plans

FROM: Larry Mishel, EPI president

DATE: January 28, 2003

In a December 2002 Briefing Paper, Generating Jobs and Growth: An Economic Stimulus Plan for 2003, EPI identified five criteria for an effective stimulus plan. A comparison shows that the stimulus plan released by Senator Tom Daschle last week meets all five of these criteria, while President Bush’s plan fails on every count.

Criteria #1: A stimulus package should generate jobs and growth.
The Daschle plan would create more than a million jobs in the next year, three times as many as President Bush’s plan. It will also help the states protect jobs in education, police and fire protection, and other vital services. Unlike the Bush plan, which according to top econometric forecaster Economy.com will cost an estimated 750,000 jobs over 10 years, the Daschle plan will have no negative long-term effects.

Criteria #2: A stimulus package should be fiscally responsible.
The Daschle plan does not rob from future generations to provide large tax cuts for those who need them the least. It puts money into the economy now, when it’s needed most. In addition, the plan will take action against corporations that avoid paying their due in taxes by setting up special tax havens. By contrast, the Bush plan will cost $670 billion over 10 years.

Criteria #3: A stimulus plan should take effect quickly.
The Daschle plan puts $141 billion into the economy in 2003, compared to $50 billion in the Bush plan.

Criteria #4: A stimulus plan should be fair.
The Daschle plan puts money into the hands of middle-income working families who need it most and are most likely to spend it. Through $300 rebates for each adult in a family and $300 for each of the first two children, the plan would return $71 billion to families in 2003. In addition, the plan would extend federal unemployment insurance benefits for the one million individuals who exhausted their benefits in 2002. Given the increasingly unequal distribution of income in the United States, a stimulus plan that exacerbates this inequality is not acceptable. The Bush plan’s benefits disproportionately go to wealthy Americans who do not need extra cash and are more likely to save the money than to put it back into the economy.

Criteria #5: A stimulus package should target unmet needs.
The Daschle plan provides $40 billion to preserve vital state services, including $6 billion to ensure that every classroom has a qualified teacher and that vital services like after-school care and summer enrichment programs are available for the nation’s children. It also provides $4 billion for mass transit, highway, and airport infrastructure. The Bush plan adds no new funding for these purposes.


from http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm?id=1353
I agree with the Democrat plan.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor Galis
Bush got Cs at Yale though


But he did get a MBA though.. and what did he get at Harvard? I am not too clear about this.. I am more familiar with my own country's politics to be honest.

Sava, I just don't agree with their assessment. It is to my understanding, that I think the tax cut will help. I don't have an MBA or any kind of economics degree.. and I am not even in University yet.. but I can come to my own conclusions. I think that a tax cut will be highly beneficial for the country. But again this is my opinion. And I put all my coins on my opinion.

Sava is offline Sava
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Fez, all I ask is that you highlight the portions you disagree with and tell me why? Feel free to link to other sites.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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I'll have to get back to you in a hour, Sava. One of my favorite TV shows is on.. Dragnet.. later...

Sava is offline Sava
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sigh... whatever...

any other pro-Bushies care to debate this with me?

 
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