02-06-2003 03:44									#91
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc They've predicted 10 of the last 5 recessions.

wait, what?

	02-06-2003 03:44									#92
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quote: But he did get a MBA though.. and what did he get at Harvard? I am not too clear about this.. I am more familiar with my own country's politics to be honest.

-Yeah, but at some universities in this country, given what grade inflation has done to the system, the only really hard part is getting in.

	02-06-2003 03:49									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Sava sigh... whatever... any other pro-Bushies care to debate this with me?

You have got too many Nobel prizes on your side, and I hate embarassing Nobel prizes

	02-06-2003 03:53									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT You have got too many Nobel prizes on your side, and I hate embarassing Nobel prizes

I know... doesn't it suck when people who are actually qualified of making effective economic policy totally shoot down a policy?

	02-06-2003 04:07									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I know... doesn't it suck when people who are actually qualified of making effective economic policy totally shoot down a policy?

I am sorry to tell you that you missed the point. Since the dogma of infallibility as been imported from Rome, the US president needs no longer to rely on competences always fallible, he knows from personnal intuition what are the right things to do. This is why it is useless to ask him to justify his decisions seriously.

	02-06-2003 04:14									#96
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I am sorry to tell you that you missed the point.

Yeah, I did. It certainly isn't the first time I've done so

quote: Since the dogma of infallibility as been imported from Rome, the US president needs no longer to rely on competences always fallible, he knows from personnal intuition what are the right things to do. This is why it is useless to ask him to justify his decisions seriously.

I agree with this 100%. For American Democracy to function better, I think we need to start putting competent people in positions of power, rather than self-serving, corporate-funded politicians.

	02-06-2003 04:36									#97
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george will had a very perceptive column on the bush tax cut working politically for the conservatives.

i tend to agree. putting money back in the hands of a decent-sized chunk of people, including many of those who can bankroll the future elections (not that bush'll need it, he's got a 120million war chest or so), particularly in a time of economic woes makes people like you.

any suggestion of fixing a lot of the problems in america that the democrats have, when forced to explain how they're going to pay for it, will have to make the probably suicidal admission that they'll have to raise taxes... giving even more strength to the conservative allegation that democrats are tax-and-spend liberals, which the sheep will believe.

besides, if the economy does recover, he can say it was his plan. if it doesn't, and we find that we have a financial disaster with the deficit a few years down the line, he'll be out of power.

politically, it's a winning deal for him.

and like all politicians, he doesn't give a damn about what's actually good for the people. just what's good politically.

	02-06-2003 04:41									#98
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Q Cubed - Government revenue increases without an increase in rates if the businesses and individuals in question make more money. An increase in income and profits equals an increase in tax revenue without an increase in rates.

The problem with Bush is that he's put Democrats to shame when it comes to increased spending and large government.

	02-06-2003 05:28									#99
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sava, i'm aware of that, the first bit, anyway.

if the economy recovers, naturally we'll do better with taxes (greater earnings), but he won't spin it that way. he'll spin it and say that the economy got better because of his plan...
and if it doesnt, and revenues continue to shrink, and we do end up in a financial pickle, he'll be out of power and it won't matter what he did.

as for the second bit, one can say that and shout it from the hills. that won't change the notion that most of the sheep in america that conservatives == small gov't, low taxes, big business and that liberals == big gov't, high taxes, and welfare.

	02-06-2003 05:36									#100
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quote: as for the second bit, one can say that and shout it from the hills. that won't change the notion that most of the sheep in america that conservatives == small gov't, low taxes, big business and that liberals == big gov't, high taxes, and welfare.

this is a systemic problem that has to do with media and education... it can be solved. But it's unlikely that it will.

	02-06-2003 05:54									#101
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I don't think just avoiding a recession will save Bush though. There would have to be a great boom to save him. He doesn't have the carisma of Ronald Reagan. He only beat Gore, because people believed he was something of a moderate.

	02-06-2003 06:00									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't think just avoiding a recession will save Bush though. There would have to be a great boom to save him.

I agree. "It's the economy, stupid!"

quote: He doesn't have the carisma of Ronald Reagan. He only beat Gore, because people believed he was something of a moderate.

The circumstances surrounding Bush's election "victory" are well-known and I'll avoid mucking up this thread with that discussion. Fact is, Bush has lied about nearly every single platform he ran on.

Economic prosperity? HAHAHA
Isolationist foreign policy? HAHAHA
Improved education? AHAHHAH
Improved quality of health-care? AHAHAHAHAH

The only question is, will the Democrats be effective in pointing out his faults enough for people to stop their blind flag-waving.

	02-06-2003 06:00									#103
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I think you are wrong Kidicious, Bush will beat whatever democratic candidate appears in 2004. Whatever one out of the 9 or 10. The democratic party is in a complete mess.

	02-06-2003 06:01									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Fez The democratic party is in a complete mess.

As it was in 1992

	02-06-2003 06:02									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Sava As it was in 1992

Actually this is going to be a 1983. A landslide victory for Bush. It only makes sense.

	02-06-2003 06:07									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Actually this is going to be a 1983. A landslide victory for Bush. It only makes sense.

While I would equate Bush's intelligence and competency with that of an Alzheimer's patient, I don't think he's that popular. As high as his approval rating is now, his daddy's was higher at this point after the first Gulf War. We shall see whether or not Americans like their money more than they fall for this pseudo-patriotism.

	02-06-2003 06:10									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Sava While I would equate Bush's intelligence and competency with that of an Alzheimer's patient, I don't think he's that popular. As high as his approval rating is now, his daddy's was higher at this point after the first Gulf War. We shall see whether or not Americans like their money more than they fall for this pseudo-patriotism.

Well lets agree to disagree. That is one thing we can agree on. I think Bush is doing fine with the economy.. apparently you don't.. but that is your opinion.

By the way, he has been abled to keep his high popularity rating quite stable.

	02-06-2003 06:22									#108
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let's not forget that bush is running unopposed, and has over 120 million in his campaign war chest.

the democratic opponent will have just come out of a brutal primary season, and odds are he won't even have a fifth of that sum in his.

	02-06-2003 06:27									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed let's not forget that bush is running unopposed, and has over 120 million in his campaign war chest. the democratic opponent will have just come out of a brutal primary season, and odds are he won't even have a fifth of that sum in his.

That 120 million may get a lot of voters out. Good thing they will vote against him .

	02-06-2003 06:29									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That 120 million may get a lot of voters out. Good thing they will vote against him .

What a load of nonsense. You think people will actually vote for whoever the democrats will put up? I am sure there may be a few who will.. but certainly not even close to enough.

	02-06-2003 06:30									#111
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quote: He only beat Gore, because people believed he was something of a moderate.

Explain the 2002 midterm elections. In the end, it was basically a vote on the Bush Presidency.

quote: let's not forget that bush is running unopposed, and has over 120 million in his campaign war chest. the democratic opponent will have just come out of a brutal primary season, and odds are he won't even have a fifth of that sum in his.

That is true. The Democrat WILL have to survive a brutal primary season... and unless it is Howard Dean or John Edwards (both highly unlikely) coming out of the bunch you won't see another 'Clintonesque' win. The rest don't have the charisma or charm.

	02-06-2003 06:31									#112
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quote: I think Bush is doing fine with the economy

but see... this is the problem... the economy is sucking! There is no disputing this! Bush's 2001 tax cut did nothing, America has lost over 1 million more jobs since then. Why would a bigger round of silly tax cuts succeed now when they didn't then?

Here's my point Fez:

All things being equal between today and 2004, if Bush wins, it will not be because of his economic policy. We can debate his economic policy, and whether or not it will be effective, but you haven't disputed anything I've posted.

If you want to dispute something I posted from the EPI website, quote it and tell me why.

	02-06-2003 06:32									#113
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quote: That is true. The Democrat WILL have to survive a brutal primary season... and unless it is Howard Dean or John Edwards (both highly unlikely) coming out of the bunch you won't see another 'Clintonesque' win. The rest don't have the charisma or charm.

You don't think Kerry can be Bush?

	02-06-2003 06:41									#114
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Kerry is wooden and boring. I don't think someone like that can beat Bush in 2004.

By 2004 the economy will be recovery (the boom/bust cycle), and while it won't be at full peak, Bush won't get hit like his dad did. As FDR said (paraphrasing) it doesn't matter if what you do works or not, as long as you DO SOMETHING! Bush is trying to do something, and for that reason he's not getting huge negatives for the economy.

	02-06-2003 06:43									#115
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Gore was wooden and boring too.

as for the economy, one will hope that it's recovering... that's still up in the air.

	02-06-2003 06:44									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That 120 million may get a lot of voters out. Good thing they will vote against him .

Unfortunately, history shows that the candidate with the most money wins a lot more often.

	02-06-2003 06:47									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Sava but see... this is the problem... the economy is sucking! There is no disputing this! Bush's 2001 tax cut did nothing, America has lost over 1 million more jobs since then. Why would a bigger round of silly tax cuts succeed now when they didn't then?

Remember what we talked over private message? You promised not being so aggressive and I would too.

I have to disagree with you. It is not so much the short term effects, but the long term improvements the tax cuts will provide.

quote: All things being equal between today and 2004, if Bush wins, it will not be because of his economic policy. We can debate his economic policy, and whether or not it will be effective, but you haven't disputed anything I've posted.

I haven't disputed anything you post? Oh please...

quote: If you want to dispute something I posted from the EPI website, quote it and tell me why.

Why should I?

	02-06-2003 06:49									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Kerry is wooden and boring.

Really? I haven't really caught on to that.

quote: By 2004 the economy will be recovery (the boom/bust cycle), and while it won't be at full peak, Bush won't get hit like his dad did. As FDR said (paraphrasing) it doesn't matter if what you do works or not, as long as you DO SOMETHING! Bush is trying to do something, and for that reason he's not getting huge negatives for the economy.

The only question (assuming there is recovery) is whether or not Bush's policies will damage the economy more than it will recover. IMO, this is a cyclical low, but being made much worse by the admin's policies.

	02-06-2003 06:53									#119
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quote: Really? I haven't really caught on to that.

Well not GORE wooden and boring, but wooden and boring none the less.

quote: whether or not Bush's policies will damage the economy more than it will recover.

Even assuming that it does (which I don't think it will), it won't matter, as long as growth rates are positive and seem to be climbing, that's all that matters.

	02-06-2003 06:53									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Remember what we talked over private message? You promised not being so aggressive and I would too.

Aggressive? I'm not getting personal here. The economy sucks. The presence of exclamation points is to illustrate the level of suckage. For example.
1929: THE ECONOMY SUCKS!!@!@!!!
1980's: The economy sucks.
early 90's: The economy sucks!
now: The economy sucks!
It's nothing directed at you, I simply used the !! to indicate the level of suckage.

quote: I haven't disputed anything you post? Oh please...

When I say dispute, I mean with fact. A simple, "you are wrong" doesn't count.

quote: Why should I?

If you want to debate with me further, you need to provide information and facts to support your argument. Otherwise, we have nothing to talk about. And I like talking to you Fez.