01-06-2003 08:00									#1
	Privateers: Useful or just bananas? Tired of ads?

In recent games I've had a blast building privateers, sending them out in a fleet (escorted to prevent attack), and seriously disrupting other civs attempts at colonization, and damaging their navies.
I kept track of their effectiveness and found that in 4 games, out of 56 privateers, I lost 48, but sunk enough galleys, caravels, and galleons that I figured the loss to the AI was (if each unit carried its maximum load), 101 units. They lost settlers and military, while I lost cheap, easily produced units.
I searched for 'privateers' in old threads and found a large number of negative comments. How do you feel about them? Are they useless to you, or do you enjoy, as I do, 'issuing letters of marque' and seeking 'prizes'?

	01-06-2003 08:58									#2
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Bananas.
Because I modded my privateers to be like a frigate except for only 1 RoF. With bombardment capability they not only are good for naval use, but also for land improvements harassment. They are good enough for even the AI to use (and they DO)!

A.D.M: 2.2.4
B.R.RoF: 2.1.1

	01-06-2003 10:37									#3
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Privateers feel like a remnant of a design decision that wasn't fleshed out.

It's a shame that Firaxis went to all that trouble doing the coding for hidden nationality for just one unit.

I'm not into the mod scene and prefer my PTW/CIV3 games as is (out of the box). And well, it's a shame. Guerilla would have used some hidden nationality functionality.

	02-06-2003 03:38									#4
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Rob_S,

You've intrigued me with your notion of sending out bunches of them. I've built them a few times and they just get sunk. So gave up. How many do you send out in a fleet? What do you mean "escorted" for protection. Does the protector tip off the nationality? Or can it sail right along with them and watch while they do the damage. Wait, I think I'm getting it -- a "friendly" civ can't attack the stack because you do have a nationality boat in it. Is that it?

	02-06-2003 04:05									#5
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Stacking Privateers with a friendly? Now thats A Good Thing.
MyOlde: as far as I know, the ai knows that you own the privateers (just like in real life) but can't declare war on you. You get a rep hit if you use them vanilla, too.

	02-06-2003 06:14									#6
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"It's a shame that Firaxis went to all that trouble doing the coding for hidden nationality for just one unit."

because of that, think of all of the fun we can now have so easily with the editor...

	02-06-2003 06:28									#7
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quote: Originally posted by MyOlde Rob_S, You've intrigued me with your notion of sending out bunches of them. I've built them a few times and they just get sunk. So gave up. How many do you send out in a fleet? What do you mean "escorted" for protection. Does the protector tip off the nationality? Or can it sail right along with them and watch while they do the damage. Wait, I think I'm getting it -- a "friendly" civ can't attack the stack because you do have a nationality boat in it. Is that it?

It depends on whether you are technologically ahead of your opponents or behind them. Privateers are great at sinking galleys, so-so at galleons and frigates, but above that they start having real trouble.

	02-06-2003 08:54									#8
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quote: Originally posted by MyOlde Rob_S, You've intrigued me with your notion of sending out bunches of them. I've built them a few times and they just get sunk. So gave up. How many do you send out in a fleet? What do you mean "escorted" for protection. Does the protector tip off the nationality? Or can it sail right along with them and watch while they do the damage. Wait, I think I'm getting it -- a "friendly" civ can't attack the stack because you do have a nationality boat in it. Is that it?

A normal fleet is 12, sufficient to do a lot of damage to galleys, caravels, and galleons. Eventually the survivors will limp into port damaged and bruised. Repaired and reinforced they go back out on the prowl.
The escort unit is usually a frigate or ironclad that moves with them as a stack, thus preventing attack from the AI.
I am assuming that the protector tips off the nationality as experience has shown me that friendly civs get annoyed when I use the privateers. But not enough for the AI to declare war. A good bit of diplomacy (i.e. giving a territory or world map) will usually make the AI kiss and make friends.
Yes--the escort is there to prevent any attack.

	02-06-2003 09:01									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Underseer It depends on whether you are technologically ahead of your opponents or behind them. Privateers are great at sinking galleys, so-so at galleons and frigates, but above that they start having real trouble.

Luck of the game is worth a shot. Privateers are pretty much useless after other civs have Cumbustion and Mass Production. There's just a window of opportunity in which to use them. But a few games back I took out the Ottomans' first battleship with 5 privateers (lost 4). Hadn't planned that--just came across it and gave it my best shot.

	02-06-2003 15:18									#10
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rubbish

	02-06-2003 16:16									#11
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In my opinion the Privateer comes a tad bit late in the game. The others have powerful ships that are tough to sink.

If I have nothing getter to build (settlers, workers, buildings) and there is no war going on... yes, I do build privateers.


Stinger: making prince anytime soon?

	02-06-2003 16:38									#12
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I'm not sure.

Are you suggesting my post was soley for the purposes of increasing my post count.

I do actually think ther're rubbish

	02-06-2003 17:10									#13
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No, hence the

Lighten up

	02-06-2003 17:14									#14
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They are rubbish. I'd rather have coastal cities building REAL warships or transports, if they have to build ships at all.

-Jam

	02-06-2003 17:24									#15
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ok...but imagine having an archipelago map where you`ve already colonized your island. Why not stop the others from colonizing other islands giving you time to organize settlers, protection, workers transports?

...without causing war of course...

	02-06-2003 22:51									#16
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I think that you would have to evaluate the particular map you are playing before you can determine weather or not privateers are useful. If you have a newly discovered island and have the excess capability, then it could be a huge advantage to keep the AI from getting there with a settler and staying out of an unwanted war.

I don't know why, but the idea of stacking a privateer fleet with a national unit had never occured to me. That is a fantastic idea that I can't wait to try out.

	02-06-2003 23:13									#17
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I typically only build privateers if I have a healthy lead. They're a fun unit for fighting during peacetime.

I typically put together stacks of 3 and roam the high seas hitting any AI ships I can find. 2-3 privateers can even take down ironclads. But mostly they're good for nailing galleys, caravels, frigates & galleons. I've had as many as 25 out at a time (standard map). Using hordes of them, you can sink entire AI navies (again, if you're comfortably ahead).

In my opinion, though, stacking privateers with normal ships (say a galleon) is an exploit. Just my opinion, of course, but deliberately using a normal ship to "protect" your privateers from attack from the AI seems cheap to me.

-Arrian

	02-06-2003 23:24									#18
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Using Sullla's measuring stick for this, stacking your own ship on your privateers is definately an exploit, since this is a blind spot for the AI and it has no idea how to deal with it.

IMO, having large fleets of privateers roaming the high seas is also an exploit. Given the AI is not very keen on using this and it becomes a one sided affair.

Also, the privateers appear to have been intended as harassment units, and not units people go around sinking entire navys with. I would certainly propose a fix whereby if attacks are frequent enough, it is tantamount to a declaration of war, and the victim civ will tell everyone aobut it and players would also take a reputation hit.

Seems reasonable to me.

	03-06-2003 00:22									#19
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Depending on how the game goes I usually I build a couple just for fun. I've tried to mod them but it's difficult to strike a balance!

So long...

	03-06-2003 00:32									#20
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hi ,

they are great in stacks to pic of the AI naval units without getting into war , .....

excellent tools for not letting that AI ship sail to that land with its settler onboard

have a nice day

	03-06-2003 01:25									#21
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dexters,

I think the AI does get pissed at you for using Privateers on them. Even though the nationality of the unit is "hidden" almost every time I've used privateers, the civ I picked on attacked me. I agree that's a good thing. The AI does occasionally use privateers, btw, just not very well. Kinda like bombard units.

-Arrian

	03-06-2003 04:28									#22
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According to Bamspeedy's AI Attitude article at CFC,
Yes, attacking with privateers does affect their attitude, by 1 per attack. I forget if that's per attack on THEM, or anyone.

	03-06-2003 14:34									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian dexters, I think the AI does get pissed at you for using Privateers on them. Even though the nationality of the unit is "hidden" almost every time I've used privateers, the civ I picked on attacked me. I agree that's a good thing. The AI does occasionally use privateers, btw, just not very well. Kinda like bombard units. -Arrian

hi ,

the AI stacks two or more naval units in the later era's , ...

but not in the early ages , if the AI where to stack them about half of the time in a small two or three stack , that could change things , .....

have a nice day

	03-06-2003 15:21									#24
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We definately need some banana boats.
Of course, later they should upgrade to heavy banana boats

	03-06-2003 15:51									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Daz No, hence the Lighten up

lighten up yourself I put a spam smilie in for gods sake , thats not an indication of being annoyed.

	03-06-2003 17:06									#26
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ok

	03-06-2003 17:53									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe According to Bamspeedy's AI Attitude article at CFC, Yes, attacking with privateers does affect their attitude, by 1 per attack. I forget if that's per attack on THEM, or anyone.

Is this effect still in play if you have a gpt trade arrangement?

	03-06-2003 18:56									#28
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You will not loose any trade agreements if you attack with Hidden Nat units

BTW, can anyone confirm that the AI will seriously hate you if you capture their city with a Hidden Nat unit?

	03-06-2003 19:16									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Louis XXIV You will not loose any trade agreements if you attack with Hidden Nat units

I wasn't so much concerned about losing trade agreements. When I have a gpt agreement with the AI then they are usually polite or gracious. If I start hammering away at their navy with privateers, then my question is: Will the gpt agreement continue to keep them polite or will the hidden offensive overide and cause a down grade in relations?

	05-06-2003 08:36									#30
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger rubbish

My dear Stinger--
I cannot help but notice that "rubbish" immediatly follows my claim to have sunk a battleship with 5 privateers. Despite your clarification a few posts down that you consider privateers 'rubbish' I cannot help but feel that you intended to doubt the veracity of my claim.
While I have no proof to offer, sir, I stand by my claim and will shout it from the parapets, the spires, and the market places of my little virtual empire that I have done such a deed. Have you not seen similar odd anamolies in this, the greatest of all strategy games? Dare I say, I would not try it again, for surely I would fail. Randomness of the game was with me, my good Stinger. I do not count fate twice to aid me.
I remain your obedient servant,
Rob