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*End Is Forever* is offline *End Is Forever*
Emperor
Salford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 02:28 Visit *End Is Forever*'s homepage!
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Much as I dislike the pathetic political chancers that are the Liberal Democrats, that's utter bullshit Stew.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 02:28
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thanks Bods

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 02:30
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Oh Sava, beware that EIF is the local Tory-no-matter-what and supports all of their policies. Probably aiming to be PM or something? (might be a bit biased)

*End Is Forever* is offline *End Is Forever*
Emperor
Salford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 02:34 Visit *End Is Forever*'s homepage!
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I am a member of the Conservative Party; I've never tried to hide that. It would make things much easier for me if the Liberal Democrats were all extreme-left fools, but they aren't. The nasty yellows are an extremely broad coalition of environmentalists, social democrats, traditional liberals and "wet" centre-right chancers with little or no shared principles, whose primary electoral asset appears to be either protest votes or two-facedness.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 02:36
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*gleefully looks forward to a Laz or MikeH post* :excited:

*End Is Forever* is offline *End Is Forever*
Emperor
Salford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 02:40 Visit *End Is Forever*'s homepage!
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It's true. Last year, the chair of the Liberal Democrats here in York was a social conservative who was comfortably as centre-right as I am (and comfortably further to the right on social and personal freedom issues). This year, their co-chairs are left-wing of the Labour Club (who consider themselves "old Labour") and their secretary is openly Marxist!

*End Is Forever* is offline *End Is Forever*
Emperor
Salford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 02:41 Visit *End Is Forever*'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
It's true. Last year, the chair of the Liberal Democrats here in York was a social conservative who was comfortably as centre-right as I am (and comfortably further to the "right" on social and personal freedom issues). This year, their co-chairs are left-wing of the Labour Club (who consider themselves "old Labour") and their secretary is openly Marxist!

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 02:41
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Devil's Advocate: is there anything wrong with a political party appealing to a wide group of people?

*End Is Forever* is offline *End Is Forever*
Emperor
Salford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 02:42 Visit *End Is Forever*'s homepage!
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If you're appealing to 99% of those people based on false principles, then yes.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 02:45
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At least they'll never be in power..

*End Is Forever* is offline *End Is Forever*
Emperor
Salford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 02:46 Visit *End Is Forever*'s homepage!
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Yeah, thank god.

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
Prince
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Jan 2003
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 05:28 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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Whether Blair and Bush find weapons or not (I doubt they will but thats irrelevant), what it shows is that they went to war on a speculation, which they purported to be fact. That is the real issue of deceit behind it. It would only be made slightly worse if that speculation turned out to be a barefaced lie and not a lucky guess, it is still a speculation and no way to conduct foreign policy.

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 05:49 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
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Here's another article from The Economist

http://www.economist.com/agenda/dis...tory_id=1823980

I especially liked this part:

quote:
The known record on Iraq intelligence (as presented to the public) is not reassuring. One dossier released by Mr Blair’s office, purporting to detail Iraq’s intelligence infrastructure and praised by Mr Powell at the UN, turned out to have been partly plagiarised from a graduate student and stitched together by spin-doctors.


(bolding added by me)

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 03-06-2003 05:54 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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And Blair today was sweating it out denying that they doctored the reports, whereas the allegations were that he embezzled them. Makes one even more suspicious when they start laying down the red herring, and giving politicians answers.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 13:32
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Tony Blair is probably rated now wuite highly on a personal level, however the Labour party as a whole is doing less well. There are problems with Health, transport and europe.

The left of the labour party probably hate Tony Balir more than the Tories. The left in Britain have always had a problem with the US and with anyone who shows any signs of not agreeing with 50 year old socialist ideas.

However the Tories are still a mess so there isn't much chance of them getting back into power.

The WMD thing will blow over Claire Short has no credibility and Cook still thinks he can be PM.

Gordon Brown is probably the big winner in all this as I think Blair will think that he has had enough of all the stress and will go off and run the UN or something similar.

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 03-06-2003 17:25 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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Stinger:

Doesnt work like that I'm afriad.

Bliar is seen as representative of the Labour party, he has always been one of the most, if not the most public face of the entire movement. Labour messes up, Blair messes up.

"The left of the labour party probably hate Tony Balir more than the Tories"

Blair seems more Thatcherite than Major!!

"The left in Britain have always had a problem with the US and with anyone who shows any signs of not agreeing with 50 year old socialist ideas"

Do you understand the left, and the diverse "left" movements in the UK? We're not all the same you know .Those 50 year old socialist ideals have largely been abandoned by many, instead replaced after the failure of Stalinism, a more libertarian approach has been adopted by many... the totalitarian and undemocratic nature of the "old school socialism" that many in the right still use to tar the entire movement with, is part of the reason for its own failure, and we have moved on. The question is.. has the right moved on? I doubt it.

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
Prince
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"The WMD thing will blow over Claire Short has no credibility and Cook still thinks he can be PM"

Unlikely. WMD will remain a problem for Blair as long as they are not found in Iraq. Wouldnt suprise me if they fabricate them, because personally, I doubt they will ever be found, put yourself in Saddams shoes, it makes most sense to have destroyed them years ago. However, it will continue to remain something of a problem for Blair as long as he is in power, and most likely for history, as the WMD issue shows that he went to war on a speculation, which he told us was true.

It is that that is the real issue, and the real problem I have with Blair right now (besides the usual).

By the way, I know many in the right seem to think that they left seems to moan about everything, but hopefully, one will soon realise that we have our reasons... boy do we have our reasons!!

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 17:30
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quote:
The question is.. has the right moved on? I doubt it.


If you mean the right as in the Conservatives, no.

If you mean the right as in free-market; pro-capitalist, -free-trade and -labour flexibility; we hardly need to move on.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 17:34
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The left in the UK are always talking about betrayal and that is one of its problems. Look at the fuss over foundation hospitals, there has to be a better way of running the NHS. However because the option are very different to how it was conceived in the 1940's then people are accused of betraying the legacy.

I know the left has many diverse elements and the vast majority can't stand the US. This includes old school lefties like Tony Benn, old school right wing labour members like Healy. It also includes the new left of Cook and Short.

As to whether the right has moved on no it hasn't the right can't get over the image of being Mean and moralistic, thats their problem though.

Also saying Blair is more thatcherite than Major is nonsense. Blair is a strong leader and bypases the cabinet which is how Thatcher operated, howver on economic and social policy thaey are miles apart. John Major was not a Thatcherite either but he is certainly more right wing than Blair.

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
Prince
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 03-06-2003 17:36 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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I mean the people that tend to critisise the left based on the political and philosophical status of that various movements that make up what the right describes as "the left". For example, those that misrepresent us as having "50 year old ideals", implying stalinism and failed examples of socialism.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
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Apr 2002
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  Old Post 03-06-2003 17:39
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I'm not even thinking of Stalinism.

I think Tony Benn to be a complete pillock but I would never think he supprted Stalin.

By the way you seem to imply I am of the right I'm not

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
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  Old Post 03-06-2003 17:45 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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"Look at the fuss over foundation hospitals"

Read Captive State by George Monboit. The fuss is in part because it creates a less efficient service, there was an example in coventry where two NHS hospitals needed repair work. Under the PFI, the repair costs several times that of the state, and all wasting taxpayers money. It would demolish the most effective hospital, and capitalise on an out-of-town site which people will find harder to get to, but it has land ripe for development and will be more profitable. That, we can safely say, sucks. It is an example of how the interests of the taxpayer and the public are being put at odds with the interests of corporations. That is not the governments job. Free market is a double edged sword, not only can the government not stop them, it shuoldnt actively help them either.

"talking about betrayal and that is one of its problems"

True, but then, New Labour has gone on something of a right-ward journey. Can you blame the traditional labour people for feeling betrayed?

"I know the left has many diverse elements and the vast majority can't stand the US."

I think thats a little too far, while I do not speak for the entire left, I am sure that while we have complaints, and valid complaints against the US, as well as fundamental problems with that nation, we can live with it. The question is, can it live with us?

" As to whether the right has moved on no it hasn't the right can't get over the image of being Mean and moralistic, thats their problem though"

I thought the right meant a complete lack of morals? jk

I wont repeat my point of view over and over, but see the link in my sig (I'll replace the article with a newer one soon). It shows how I and others like me are actually probably more right than left, but still, left (the one dimensional political spectrum is so limiting. A hypercube would be better).

" Also saying Blair is more thatcherite than Major is nonsense. Blair is a strong leader and bypases the cabinet which is how Thatcher operated, howver on economic and social policy thaey are miles apart. John Major was not a Thatcherite either but he is certainly more right wing than Blair"

PFI

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
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  Old Post 03-06-2003 17:48 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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"I'm not even thinking of Stalinism."

I always say Stalinism where people otherwise say communism, to mean Russias system through that part of the 20th century. Communism is far more diverse than Stalinism, it is unfair to paint that entire movement with the same brush.

"I think Tony Benn to be a complete pillock but I would never think he supprted Stalin."

What he do?

"By the way you seem to imply I am of the right I'm not"

My apologies, not my intention, you appear to be fairly neutral in the matter of right vs left. Like I said, I think its more than just one dimensional.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:28
  Old Post 03-06-2003 17:50
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PFI is more Brown than Blair. No Thatcher or Major government would seek to regulate private sector pay.

On hospitals, I have no idea if foundation hospitals are the right way top go, I do know the current syatem is an inefficient mess. Something has to be done other than spending more money. This amongst a large number on the left is heresey.

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Warlord
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Apr 2002
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  Old Post 03-06-2003 17:54
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Tony Benn is a nice guy who with IMHO has been wrong on nearly every issue in the last 50 years. Because he is an affable sort of chap people now seem to forget he is very hard left and would have severly damaged our country if he ever got real power.

Concorde was good though

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
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Agreed, the way that the NHS is run is pants, but then, it is not inherent to the NHS, and Blair would be better off copying the German model.

Foundation hospitals are a good idea for those that succeed, and a bad idea for the majority of the mediocre hospitals. If the situation was reversed and there was a majority of high class hospitals, vs a minority of mediocre ones, then it would be a good idea, as it would encourage the mediocre ones to improve, and also highlight them for more government funding.

The way it will go in this day and age, will be the few getting better rapidly, and the many getting worse slowly.

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"Tony Benn is a nice guy who with IMHO has been wrong on nearly every issue in the last 50 years"

I dont know much about Tony Benn so I cant answer that, I will look into it.

He does seem like a nice chap though, however, so does Bush.

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Warlord
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Apr 2002
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Is germany run on social insurance. Because that is seen as betrayal by some.

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I think its a far more efficient and egalitarian solution. One reason I for one am not an old school socialist, I dont believe that everything should be rigidly public funded and a one size fits all system.

Id actually and ideally prefer a system where people choose to pay tax, and by that, they choose whether to accept public services, thus placing public services at competition with private, making it better for all (of course nothing to stop the government from going into business ). Of course, that probably wont happen in my lifetime, but doesnt make it less viable. Not your typical leftist response eh?

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Apr 2002
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There the sort of comments that would come back to haunt you if you ever entered politics in latter life.

 
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