04-06-2003 19:17									#1
	AI Improvements: The Poly Peanut Gallery Speaks! Increase the size of your Attachments

In many single player games, I often feel that the AI problems are so severe that it's a huge can of worms to try to suggest improvements. With RoN, however, I often find myself saying "Gee, if the AI only did this or that a little differently, that would be stunning."

In that spirit, could you all periodically come here and jot down what you wished the AI had done differently? For the record, at least on slow speed, I'm now able to take on two "Tough" AIs at once ... which only goes to say that I think with a few tweaks, those AIs would beat me.

Suggestions:

1) I'm thrilled that the AI is capable of some early raids with fairly sizeable armies. However, they seem to attack the most forward-built structure. Now, if that happens to be a city with lots of resource-gathering going on, you're more likely to have some trouble. But I now always have my forward-most structures in the early game be a tower and a barracks. I fill the tower with archers and produce a half dozen or so ground troops as backup.

Sure enough in my game last night against 2 AIs, in rolls their raiding parties ... but they stop right at my tower and stay there, slowly getting chewed up. Had those same armies avoided my towers completely, they could have stolled right into the heart of my resource-gathering operation ... which really would have put the hurt on me in so many ways!

This behavior is also present in human players who haven't learned this key lesson: It's the economy, stupid! (Quoting Clinton). Killing 5 or 10 enemy villies will gain you far, far more than killing 1 enemy tower. Not only that, the enemy will likely ring his village bell, effectively stopping the resource-gathering for an entire city. In which case, the AI should move on to the next city. Rinse and repeat until it has finally lost all its units, but likely only after having wreaked some serious havoc.

So, please have the AI raid in this way rather than line up for target practice! I'm convinced this will --without cheating-- give the AI a much, much greater edge in the early game.

Last edited by yin26 on 04-06-2003 at 19:35

	04-06-2003 20:16									#2
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When I get attacked by the AI at the capital, I usually don't pull my forces back to my capital, but attack his city instead. This will always force the AI to pull back and defend.

It would be nice if the AI would understand the 'Power of Sacrifice' -> lose a secondary or tertiary city to me, but conquer the capital.

	04-06-2003 22:04									#3
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The AI needs to learn that its bad to use nukes so liberally and how to use cruise missiles instead. So often the ticker goes to 1 because the AI's will nuke like crazy until then.

So it's funny when somebody researches the missile defense shield because the ticker goes to 3, and every AI launches whatever stockpile they've amassed since it isn't 1 anymore. Game over man.

	05-06-2003 12:25									#4
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I think it'd be nice to see the AI pull off some semi-advanced tactics like flanking with unit types calibrated for doing so.

I'm a novice at RoN, having only played about 4 games of it, but so far the comps (at least on "moderate") haven't flanked even once.

I'd like to have it so I'm sitting there, slowly cutting my way through heavy infantry thinking I'm so smart and then looking to see 20 heavy knights gallopping at the undefended backside of my troops. The shock I'd feel...classic.

- PTM

	05-06-2003 15:41									#5
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yeah even a single ungarrisoned fortress on the edge of your territory nearest to the enemy is often enough to stop the enemy invading until they have a large invasion force backed by siege weapons. Which gives plenty of time to build a force to repel them for the by the loss of a mere fort in the worst case scenario.

It would be annoying but very funky if the enemy could just bypass strongholds and move on the undefended cities just past the defences.

	05-06-2003 16:02									#6
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having played a few quick battles on fairy easy levels (up to normal) and slow speeds, with no rush - I have one big complain.

The AI builds way too many libraries, barracks, etc...
So far I have managed very well with one of each, thus leaving the hardearned resources to upgrades, research, wonders and units. (Oh, and forts - love them...)

	05-06-2003 16:50									#7
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Personally I tend to go with 2 or 3 librararies.

And you definately need to go for 2 or more of each military building if you want to pull of an attack by a Tough AI.

As someone in BHG has said, the Easy AI will counter with the wrong units. And that's why you manage to keep up with only 1 barracks.

	05-06-2003 22:56									#8
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The AI doesn't seem aggressive enough in building some key wonders. For example, the Collosus: this baby, which comes early in the game and is relatively cheap, raises your pop limit by 50! Man, I can't tell you how important this is...for example, I use a 150 pop limit. With this wonder, though, I've got 200 while the AIs are stuck at 50 lower.

This allows me to field an entire 50 'unit' army without having to pull a single villager off resource gathering. In my mind, this makes the game almost too easy, yet the computer never seem to make Collosus a priority. The same for Versailles -- which is ENORMOUSLY important in having units heal in the radius of a general. Man, these two wonders together make you a virtual killing machine!

Toss in the Eiffle Tower, which ups your oil production and pushes out your borders ... well, game over.

It seems like the AI is only building wonders when it has left over resources or something? In any event, it really *must* make some of these wonders a priority in order to give a human player a better challenge. Thanks!

	06-06-2003 00:00									#9
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In my experience, AI builds them wonders late. I've seen it start the Colossus in Englithement. Needless to say, I can by then get anything I want.

Colossus = crucial. Versailles = crucial. Statue of Liberty = crucial. Eiffel = crucial.

	06-06-2003 01:46									#10
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Solver: Yes, that seems to be the pattern. What a pity! Perhaps playing on 'Tougher' will give the AI greater incentive to put its added resources to wonders earlier?

	06-06-2003 02:56									#11
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I wonder if the 150 pop. limit is hampering the AI's ability to collect all the resources it needs. It could be that it's tuned to go for broke, and limiting its population is cramping its style.

	06-06-2003 03:28									#12
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What 150 pop limit? AI has the same pop limit as you do.

	06-06-2003 16:04									#13
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The biggest weakness are the early attacks imho. I built near every city a tower and have attrition up to date. So every atack without siege units is nuts. I dont built any units till the third age. The ai wastes so many recourses on these raids so that it cant keep up with building wonders and do research. So I have during the enlightment age a big enough advantage to take the offensive (with Terra Cotta of course). That is on though settings.

Tougher is another story. The ai cheats on ressources that much that it can attack constantly but still have no probs to keep up in research. Quite interesting games on this setting. Your spys are expellt faster as you can send them in

	06-06-2003 22:51									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Palpatine Tougher is another story. The ai cheats on ressources that much that it can attack constantly but still have no probs to keep up in research. Quite interesting games on this setting. Your spys are expellt faster as you can send them in

I dont have RON yet, but intend to buy it soon, as do my two brothers. So, a silly question >does the ai cheat on resources on 'tougher' level? I thought I read somewhere that the AI simply plays 'better' on this level without cheats.

	06-06-2003 23:00									#15
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Check out this post from Brian:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...674#post2019674

quote: FYI the "Moderate" level is actually not the highest of the AI-doesn't-cheat levels--for that you want "Tough" level. At Moderate level the AI, believe it or not, pulls some of its punches in terms of aggressiveness [...] "Tough" is specced as the level at which the AI plays its "best game" without cheating. At Tougher & Toughest level the AI does actually get a resource & unit-speed advantage (kind of like giving a skill handicap to a human player in multiplayer) so watch out!

	06-06-2003 23:15									#16
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Thanks Carch. The similar sounding names to the difficulty levels got me confused, I guess.

	07-06-2003 22:48									#17
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Two things:

1. I second the comp-using-cruise missiles idea. Maybe there should be some hidden counter of how irritated the comp has to be before it uses nukes

2. Ships. The AI creates a few too many ships, I think- the seas are clogged with them.

	09-06-2003 00:12									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel yeah even a single ungarrisoned fortress on the edge of your territory nearest to the enemy is often enough to stop the enemy invading until they have a large invasion force backed by siege weapons. Which gives plenty of time to build a force to repel them for the by the loss of a mere fort in the worst case scenario. It would be annoying but very funky if the enemy could just bypass strongholds and move on the undefended cities just past the defences.

how does the computer know the fortress is ungarrissoned?

	09-06-2003 00:31									#19
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If you give the AI the intelligence to hit the civillians, then you need to give allow humans to by double clicking on a certain enemy unit make all selected units attack that type of enemy unit in range.

Also you have to balance this off against ignoring the civvies and hitting the city directly because sometimes it can be better to take an enemy city for a while during a raid, to deny it's use to the enemy.

i totally agree with the capital defense. Sometimes giving up a secondary city is more important to attain capital victory.

From the PC's point of view too, it could do capital defense better on some maps. For example, on the Australian outback map, the PC seems to handle the land battles ok, but completely igornes the ocean because it's on the edge of the map. (and the computer seems to focus exclusively on the map center). On several games, some AI's have left their capitals open to attack from a massive bombing raid or nuke to reduce the city followed by a lightning sea invasion by infantry to capture the capital. Of course I've done this against humans as well.

	10-06-2003 18:15									#20
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Please have AI make better use of aerial assaults/defense: In every game I've played so far, the AI uses his planes to attack a wonder deep in my territory ... this despite the fact that I've got half a dozen SAMs put up in short order. Still they come like moths to a flame. Never mind it takes about 1,000 years to strafe a wonder to death. Had those same planes been used against my ground troops or resource-gathering villies, there might have been a positive result for the AI.

Also, the AI allows my planes to wreck his ground troops without so much as a SAM being put in defense. This means that if I get an air force first (the normal situation), I can easily turn the tide of any close war in my favor. Shift + I then R on top of his troops. All airfields now report to that location and bomb the AI into the stone age.

This is on Tough.

Having said all this, it's still a whole lot of fun to use aerial assults in RoN! You guys designed this to be very easy and fun to use. Watching planes dive-bomb a target is just so satisfying. Now, if the AI can be made to use those forces more effectively, I'd be thrilled.