05-06-2003 02:43									#1
	Can you live without tabbed browsing? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I have to say I can't stand using any browser that doesn't support tabs anymore.

Does anyone else feel the same way? I mean it is just disgraceful that some browsers don't support it. In fact I'd like to see tabs become a more regular UI feature.

	05-06-2003 02:51									#2
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I am stupid

	05-06-2003 02:53									#3
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Don't really get it.
I guess that's option 3 isn't it

	05-06-2003 03:01									#4
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Tabbed Browsing is a function that enables you to have several pages open at once without having separate windows. It's implemented in Netscape and a few other browsers.

Here's a pic of the open source browser Camino, which has tabs.

Attachment: picture 1.jpg
This has been downloaded 230 time(s).

	05-06-2003 03:02									#5
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Tabs are used in Opera. New windows are opened and have tabs at the bottom (or top, or right, or whatever) of the screen, as opposed to opening each new window in the taskbar like with IE.

I find it very nice and it certainly helps keep my taskbar clean.

	05-06-2003 03:42									#6
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Dunno if I can live without tabs, I'm using Opera for a long time now, so I really don't know...

	05-06-2003 03:45									#7
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Yes.

I prefer to Alt-Tab my way through my (usually) two or three open browsers.

	05-06-2003 03:56									#8
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Yeah, I always have multiple browsers open. Though WinXP does let you have them all under one thing in the taskbar, I just never use it - it confusles me.

	05-06-2003 04:04									#9
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quote: it confusles me

It used to confusle me to, but after using Opera nothing confusles me any more

	05-06-2003 04:06									#10
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I can use both. I really don't care one way or another.

I can see how awesome it'd be on the Mac when you're used to a braindead Dock, though.

In Windows is mostly a non-issue, since the taskbar lists all active windows so it's like having the tabs anyway.

Soon enough, you'll realize that the idea behind "tabbed browsing" can be extended to your whole computer, via the taskbar, and you'll wonder how you did without it.

And for the record, MS is moving away from MDI and will never implement tabbed browsing in IE. Look at Office, how it moved from MDI to MTI in 2000 and XP.

Usability studies have proven that MDIs are actually less effective in terms of functional use and ease of use. Hence why your Word docs now take up their own space on the taskbar rather than just a sub-window inside as Word taskbar entry. It's still under the same process, though.

Last edited by Asher on 05-06-2003 at 04:11

	05-06-2003 04:13									#11
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quote: And for the record, MS is moving away from MDI and will never implemented tabbed browsing in IE. Look at Office, how it moved from MDI to MTI in 2000 and XP.

Any chance you'll give a translation that people like me can understand?

	05-06-2003 04:17									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij quote: And for the record, MS is moving away from MDI and will never implemented tabbed browsing in IE. Look at Office, how it moved from MDI to MTI in 2000 and XP. Any chance you'll give a translation that people like me can understand?

SDI = Single Document Interface: 1 process (actual running engine/program/whatever), 1 document. Example: Notepad. You want to load more than one document, it'll load the program all over again. Been around for many, many years.

MDI = Multiple Document Interface: 1 process (actual running engine/program/whatever), multiple documents. So there would be one taskbar entry, and when you click it, it'd have a bunch of smaller windows inside it and you'd use the Windows menu to switch between them. MDI has been around for many, many years.

MTI = Multiple Task Interface. It's new, and developed as part of MS' goal of making the OS "task-based". It's rather agnostic as to what a program and document is. It separates windows by tasks (ie, what they're doing). Office 2000 and XP are the biggest programs right now that use it. Every time you create a new Word document, it uses the existing Word engine and just opens another taskbar entry specifically for that window, rather than clumping it under a generic "Word" entry.

	05-06-2003 04:18									#13
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quote: Any chance you'll give a translation that people like me can understand?

Microsoft's target UI demographic is people who haven't used computers for more than five minutes. Tabs confuse them.

In every OS, it Microsoft makes it harder and harder to do everyday tasks for experienced customers.

	05-06-2003 04:19									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I can use both. I really don't care one way or another. I can see how awesome it'd be on the Mac when you're used to a braindead Dock, though.

Couldn't resist it, could you?

Since windows cascade on the mac rather than maximising to take up the whole screen, it's a case of grabbing the Window you want. Tabs are useful when you have seven or eight sites open at once. Putting them in the taskbar is dumb - it confuses them with other open windows and it's too far from all the other browser buttons.

I prefer tabs when I use Windows anyway for the last reason I stated.

	05-06-2003 04:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo In every OS, it Microsoft makes it harder and harder to do everyday tasks for experienced customers.

That's bullshit and you know it, St. Leo.

Look at WinXP versus Win98. It's easier to do everything for new and experienced customers, mainly because you can always revert to the oldstyle if you want to.

	05-06-2003 04:22									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Couldn't resist it, could you? Since windows cascade on the mac rather than maximising to take up the whole screen, it's a case of grabbing the Window you want.

Have you ever used a PC at all?
Cascading is hardly a Mac-exclusive feature. It's just an incredibly annoying (and stupid) way to use your computer, and it exists because the Mac lacks a capable task-switcher so they need the background Windows in easy view for fast access. This, of course, drastically cuts down on screen realestate.

quote: Tabs are useful when you have seven or eight sites open at once. Putting them in the taskbar is dumb - it confuses them with other open windows and it's too far from all the other browser buttons.

How so? Why don't you put the taskbar on the top? Or on the left? Or on the right? You can do that, you know.

The taskbar also groups all entries together for the same program (eg, all IE windows will be in order), and you can configure it to place all the windows for a program under one entry if you wanted, too.

And weren't you the one excusing putting running and non-running programs together on the dock, laughing at me for saying it's confusing...and now you're here saying it's confusing for all windows to be listed on the taskbar?

	05-06-2003 04:22									#17
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Thanks Asher, maybe next time you can make your posts as easily understandable?

On a side note, since MS runs the computer industry like since the Middle Ages, why didn't they come up with this in like 1785?

	05-06-2003 04:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Thanks Asher, maybe next time you can make your posts as easily understandable?

If somebody wants to know something, all they have to do is ask.

quote: On a side note, since MS runs the computer industry like since the Middle Ages, why didn't they come up with this in like 1785?

Because computers are a new field. Everything is still being discovered.

MS has (intelligently) done much R&D into user interfaces and determined organizing by task is far more intuitive and far more functional than organizing by program. Unfortunately, Apple is a bit arrogant (or perhaps they think their users are too dumb to adapt to a rather radical change in interface), and still believes the best way to organize a computer's interface is purely with glitzy glamour and an archaic program-centric architecture.

	05-06-2003 04:37									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Have you ever used a PC at all? Cascading is hardly a Mac-exclusive feature. It's just an incredibly annoying (and stupid) way to use your computer, and it exists because the Mac lacks a capable task-switcher so they need the background Windows in easy view for fast access. This, of course, drastically cuts down on screen realestate.

Which is used up again by MS dumb insistence on attaching the menu to the window.

quote: How so? Why don't you put the taskbar on the top? Or on the left? Or on the right? You can do that, you know.

Most people don't.

quote: The taskbar also groups all entries together for the same program (eg, all IE windows will be in order), and you can configure it to place all the windows for a program under one entry if you wanted, too.

Yes, but it doesn't tell you which one is frontmost and the Dock does that. I'm getting tired of explaining this. You merely click on the program's icon and the list of open windows comes up, or you click on it's mimized icon in the dock. The former method is quicker when there are lots of open windows, the latter when there are only a few.

quote: And weren't you the one excusing putting running and non-running programs together on the dock, laughing at me for saying it's confusing...and now you're here saying it's confusing for all windows to be listed on the taskbar?

Because the dock has large and beautiful icons, the taskbar small icons with text that gets cut off when you have a suitably large number of windows open.

It's dumb having them at the bottom when the rest of the buttons you need are at the top. Not having tabs is a black eye for IE.

	05-06-2003 04:42									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Which is used up again by MS dumb insistence on attaching the menu to the window.

Yes, it truly is dumb to attach controls to the window they control. It makes much more sense to have one set of controls for the entire interface, far away from where the window really is.

quote: Most people don't.

The reason is preference. If they want to, they can move them. So if somebody's complaining about it, they can move it. The "Most people don't" argument is mighty silly...

quote: Yes, but it doesn't tell you which one is frontmost and the Dock does that.

Err...why is this necessary on Windows?
The active window is highlighted, I don't understand why telling people which one is "frontmost" is at all useful?

quote: I'm getting tired of explaining this. You merely click on the program's icon and the list of open windows comes up,

I know how it works. I just think it's stupid, and so do most people who stop to think about it, and especially people who design interfaces.

quote: Because the dock has large and beautiful icons

Mac rationale.

quote: the taskbar small icons with text that gets cut off when you have a suitably large number of windows open.

The "text that gets cut off" is a weird complaint, because the Mac doesn't show any text. Just the icon. Explain to me the relevance and/or how this helps your position?

quote: It's dumb having them at the bottom when the rest of the buttons you need are at the top. Not having tabs is a black eye for IE.

No, poor security design is a blackeye for IE.

IE is the one with 95% marketshare, so perhaps you should reevaluate your position on the necessity of tabs...

BTW, I notice that you teach a 100-level Philosophy course. Do you teach anything more advanced?

	05-06-2003 04:45									#21
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Nice picture, by the way.

You almost look like SuperSneak.

	05-06-2003 04:46									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And for the record, MS is moving away from MDI and will never implement tabbed browsing in IE. Look at Office, how it moved from MDI to MTI in 2000 and XP.

The problem with MDI in Word (for instance) was that there was no "taskbar within the mother window" (like in Opera).
One had to switch windows through the Window-thingy in the top bar, which was very annoying.

	05-06-2003 04:48									#23
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I stopped using IE immediately after discovering the tabs in Mozilla and now I only use it for sites that don't work in Mozilla.

I still can't believe that MS hasn't put tabs in IE yet It's such a simple but oh-so wonderful feature...

	05-06-2003 04:48									#24
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Oh, and to answer the question:

Yes, I can live without it. I have my tabs at the bottom, so it's basically not intuitively different.

I just cannot live without mouse gestures.

	05-06-2003 04:52									#25
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Since I use Mozilla, I hate it whenever I must browse 'Poly on a IE-only machine.

I browse with many tabs, especially when I browse 'Poly, and I can't stand to have a taskbar cluttered so that I can't distinctfully click on the other running applications.

Since I am at ease with computers, I think the program-based interface is much more logic and fast, as it allows people who are performing many tasks at once to use them efficiently.

Arguing in favour of the "everything in the taskbar" sounds about as absurd to me as being in favour of "every file in the C:\ directory, no subdirectories". Both mean terrible clutter for experienced users.

Tabs are absolutely great

	05-06-2003 04:52									#26
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How is it cluttered when it's organized?

	05-06-2003 04:53									#27
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quote: MS has (intelligently) done much R&D into user interfaces and determined organizing by task is far more intuitive and far more functional than organizing by program. Unfortunately, Apple is a bit arrogant (or perhaps they think their users are too dumb to adapt to a rather radical change in interface), and still believes the best way to organize a computer's interface is purely with glitzy glamour and an archaic program-centric architecture.

Ah... The Asher we all learned to love

Zoppski, tabs at the bottom and mouse gestures

	05-06-2003 04:54									#28
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My biggest complaint about the taskbar is that I can't have it hide processes, so it can become unnecessarily cluttered. F'rinstance, I've typically got Winamp running and don't need to access it for any reason, yet it's still down there on my taskbar taking up space. Same thing with my AIM Away message, or the command line when I'm taking data, etc.

	05-06-2003 04:55									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How is it cluttered when it's organized?

It is organized if you have "subtasks" the very same way you ave "subdirectories". tabs are such "subtasks". I'd love to see them in Office too.

	05-06-2003 04:58									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The reason is preference. If they want to, they can move them. So if somebody's complaining about it, they can move it. The "Most people don't" argument is mighty silly...

The average home user doesn't even know it can be moved.

quote: Err...why is this necessary on Windows? The active window is highlighted, I don't understand why telling people which one is "frontmost" is at all useful?

So it's highlighted when they are all hidden. Interesting.

quote: The "text that gets cut off" is a weird complaint, because the Mac doesn't show any text. Just the icon. Explain to me the relevance and/or how this helps your position?

Your argument that the text helps is silly. People can see what windows they have minimized in the dock. It only get's confusing when there are too many. And that's when you use the application icon. But if there are too many open windows in the taskbar, the text is useless.

quote: IE is the one with 95% marketshare, so perhaps you should reevaluate your position on the necessity of tabs...

Well, we all know why that is....

quote: BTW, I notice that you teach a 100-level Philosophy course. Do you teach anything more advanced?

It's not my course. I TAed for that course this year - in fact I got headhunted to do that. The most experienced teachers among the PhD students got picked for it because it was a seminar based course rather than regular tutorials. It's actually more difficult to teach introductory philosophy than third or fourth year stuff because by that time most of the students know what they are doing and you don't have to spend ages thinking up new ways of explaining entirely unfamilar concepts to them.

Anyway, congratulations on turning a thread on tabs into some anti-Macintosh rant.